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Old 09-13-2007, 03:13 PM   #81
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:38 PM   #82
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Something that might augment dory's fine "reasonable person" policy: never say something in a public online setting that you wouldn't say sitting next to that person.

And, yes, that means you probably wouldn't want to sit next to me.
Sure I would. If only to see if I could maybe get a few chiggers on ya'.
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:57 PM   #83
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ISTM that a lot of the griping about trolls or not and moderation or not comes from posters who aren't moderators and wouldn't be moderators if you pointed a gun at them.

If you don't like the Zeitgeist here, then start your own unmoderated discussion forum. Let the trolls who are not really trolls by your own estimation infest your board. See how smoothly things run.

This is private property. There's no First Amendment. Get over it already.

As a final thought, some words of wisdom from the moderation rules on another forum.

Quote:
Moderation makes no one happy: those being singled out, those who don't like moderation of any kind, the moderator for having to do it. Moderation creates no visible winners and many visibly upset losers.

The alternative - no moderation - seems to have no such problems. That is an illusion. As conversations and debates turn successively into disputes and arguments and name-calling and vandalism, the upset don't complain. They are invisible losers and the usual result is that they slowly drift away and the forum collapses.
P.S. I thought when we changed over to the new regime that only guests would be seeing advertising. So why do I see a solicitation for "Learn to Trade Forex" right above this posting box?
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:39 PM   #84
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ISTM that a lot of the griping about trolls or not and moderation or not comes from posters who aren't moderators and wouldn't be moderators if you pointed a gun at them.
Damn straight. I am amazed that anybody volunteers for such a gig, especially people who want to retire to escape a bunch of BS.

But I'm not griping about moderation, and I don't even know what a troll is.

I'm griping about manners. If the big dogs here have bad manners, then nobody will behave well. What's wrong with treating people with respect even if you don't like them? What's wrong with bringing the level of conversation up to your level rather than bringing it down to a nasty level?

Isn't that what you do in real life, or do the troll hunters confront and chase rude people away from their homes and workplaces on a daily basis?
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:46 PM   #85
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twaddle, I just reviewed this thread and I don't see why you are so bent out of shape? The mods have been doing a great job keeping things running smooth and pulling the occasional spam. The tone of your posts has some type of resentment or other harsh feelings of discontent. If you are really that unhappy then maybe it would be best to find a new E-R board to hang out at?

If someone thinks I have looked over the obvious or just not understanding the severity of the alleged situation please send me a PM and help me understand.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:51 PM   #86
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Andy, I'll PM you a few threads for you to review, and then I'll shutup. I harbor no resentment except for the downhill course this site has taken.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:00 PM   #87
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I'm griping about manners. If the big dogs here have bad manners, then nobody will behave well. What's wrong with treating people with respect even if you don't like them? What's wrong with bringing the level of conversation up to your level rather than bringing it down to a nasty level?
On this point I agree with you. Bad manners closes constructive comunications.

A person who shows a pattern of trying to destroy what the forum was intended to do should be exterminated in a polite manner.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:29 PM   #88
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What's wrong with treating people with respect even if you don't like them? What's wrong with bringing the level of conversation up to your level rather than bringing it down to a nasty level?

Isn't that what you do in real life, or do the troll hunters confront and chase rude people away from their homes and workplaces on a daily basis?
Excellent in theory and somewhat difficult to practise in real life, never mind on a discussion forum.

Consider, for example, this fellow, who has made 58 posts in 48 hours (many quoting your very reasoned reasonable tolerant attitude), all of which can be boiled down to "Poor me." He can't do that here because dory heaved him over the side years ago, as have many other forums where he has tried his spiel. So he hangs out at the only site that will have him, a place where he is lampooned. And he posts over and over and over whether he gets feedback or not. Behavior like that gets old. Fast.

And yes, in real life, if someone persists in repeating the same message 58 times in 48 hours, I get pissed. I stop trying to bring the conversation up to my level and start getting nasty and usually sarcastic.

Maybe that's not you. I congratulate you on your even demeanor. Send me your address. I'll make sure the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons have it. There's no reason they should have to put up with my nastiness when they could have you bringing the level of conversation up for them. Let's make September "Send the trolls to twaddle" month. I win, you win, they win.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:34 PM   #89
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nfs, I've been on the net for 25 years, and I've never seen anybody as persistently obnoxiously single-minded as The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken.

So, let's call that a special case, eh? I'm talking about the general case here.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:40 PM   #90
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I guess what I don't understand is this. Since this is not real life where a person can at least for a while force you to listen to his weirdness, but only a message board where you don't have to read anything you don't want too- why does this bother you?

Is it just the idea that somewhere out there is an uncontrolled odd person expressing himself?

I am not being sarcastic, I really am interested in understanding this POV which is clearly shared by a goodly number of posters.

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Old 09-13-2007, 06:21 PM   #91
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I guess what I don't understand is this. Since this is not real life where a person can at least for a while force you to listen to his weirdness, but only a message board where you don't have to read anything you don't want too- why does this bother you?

Is it just the idea that somewhere out there is an uncontrolled odd person expressing himself?
No, I don't mind odd people myself. A forum devoted to early retirement is bound to be full of them. And almost all of them are fun odd. I even loved John Galt, because how could you do anything but chuckle at how full of **** he was? And it was different every time. He had more ridiculous stories than Campbell has soup. It was pure entertainment.

The problem with the monomaniacally odd is that you can't really get away from reading them on a discussion forum. Somebody will always reply. Somebody will always quote them in order to rebut. So ignore lists become useless. It's not just He Who Can't Be Named or the Florida Sorcerer's Apprentice or the Montreal Moron. Insurance salesmen are the same way usually. It's all, "Let me show you the promised land, let me show you the promised land, let me show you the promised land .... help, help, I'm being repressed, see the violence inherent in the alpha dogs system." And you can't get away. The software has no ignore list for So-and-so and everyone who replies to So-and-so.

Imagine, if you will, how long you might last if you started quoting portions of the text of the very famous "I Want To Be Your Board General" speech in every thread in every forum of this site. Or try opening a blog and then posting links to it 23 times a day on this forum. When you're told to stop, start whinging about the jackbooted moderation.

That's what moderators save you from, not the odd eccentric person. Honestly, if you're militantly in favor of free speech, try opening an unmoderated forum yourself. See how long it takes s/n to go under 20%, even with alpha dogs around. At 20%, a forum gets pretty hard to read. At 10%, it's pointless and the forum dies.

Hosting is about $5 a month these days, software is free. Call it "Odd Man Out" and publish a link. Promise no moderation. See what you get.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:33 PM   #92
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Hosting is about $5 a month these days, software is free. Call it "Odd Man Out" and publish a link. Promise no moderation. See what you get.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:33 PM   #93
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[How many more posts do I get before AndyR gives me the boot?]

The "no moderation" argument is a strawman. We need moderation. Society needs cops.

But at what point do cops hurt? Obviously, a witch hunt isn't moderation, is it? What did the "troll" named Jumpstart do to get banned (again)?

Is the ambiance better or worse than before? Maybe I'm just nostalgic for old times, but I find it hard to believe that this site attracts so many Evil Trolls that they need to be banned on a daily basis and/or publically hounded until they give up on this hostile environment.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:41 PM   #94
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Damn straight. I am amazed that anybody volunteers for such a gig, especially people who want to retire to escape a bunch of BS.

But I'm not griping about moderation, and I don't even know what a troll is.

I'm griping about manners. If the big dogs here have bad manners, then nobody will behave well. What's wrong with treating people with respect even if you don't like them? What's wrong with bringing the level of conversation up to your level rather than bringing it down to a nasty level?

Isn't that what you do in real life, or do the troll hunters confront and chase rude people away from their homes and workplaces on a daily basis?
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...tml#post416096
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:46 PM   #95
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Sorry, Martha, I don't get the reference. I loved that thread, though! Did somebody ban Zipper? Zipper, the harmless Canadian atheist?
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:49 PM   #96
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Sorry, Martha, I don't get the reference. I loved that thread, though! Did somebody ban Zipper? Zipper, the harmless Canadian atheist?
I should have linked to the top of the thread. The whole thread was (in my mind anyway) about manners and respect. As far as I know, Zipper is still around.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:52 PM   #97
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Minor clarification for the record -- not 100% open moderation, so not true "Odd Man Out" as proposed. That would be "Usenet". :-)

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Old 09-13-2007, 07:14 PM   #98
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The whole thread was (in my mind anyway) about manners and respect.
Perhaps. I guess I value irreverence more than hostile confrontation. Maybe that's what I miss about this place. It used to be funny and irreverent. Now, there seems to be more open hostility and grudge matches, and I'm just trying to point to possible root causes and fix them.

I know I'm tilting at windmills, though. How many more post do I get, AndyR?
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:23 PM   #99
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I know I'm tilting at windmills, though. How many more post do I get, AndyR?
If I have 6 I'd like to donate 5 to Twaddle. (Saving one to stomp off in a huff if needed)
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:27 PM   #100
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If I have 6 I'd like to donate 5 to Twaddle. (Saving one to stomp off in a huff if needed)
Best that you both just stay behind a rock and lob in the occasional bomb.

Ha
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