Please, take a breath.

[CuppaJoe]

I will briefly ignore the soap box comments on this thread and veer back to post #1. Over the weekend I carefully read many of the threads, much more thoroughly than I usually do on weekends. One poster gave us his deepest feelings about Father's Day. Several others others made nasty posts that I took as reflections of being down on a major holiday. At least one of them has since returned to normal posts. So I would vote to overlook a lot of recent negative stuff.

BTW, Someone posted that the Thank You thumbs up can be used as ironic or sarcastic thanks. If you received a thumbs up from me, it was sincere!

 

[Nords]

Wow.
I know I hardly ever poke my head in here any longer, but I always think of you guys as the core -- I'd hate to hear of long term posters leaving, but I also know that you have to moderate firmly and without bias, or you get chaos...
Don't lose it guys. Hang in there.

It's OK, Drip, the departing posters are all heading over to Raddr's board...

 

[yakers]

IIMHO, & if this ever comes to a vote, I would keep the soapbox but mark it XXX/poison and leave a notice that ideas [-]discussed[/-] screemed at should not be taken to any other part of the board.

I don't think I have posted to the board and rarely even read it. But 'maybe' its a good outlet. There used to be an uncontrolled shooting area in the nearby national park. The area looked like a blight on the environment but it was an outlet and now that it is closed there is less but more random shooting in the park.

 

[Marquette]

If you ignore a forum, threads from it don't even show up on the portal page! It's amazing. I have no idea what this soapbox thing is you all are referring to... I ignore travel too, is that where all of this is going down?

 

[CalTex]

Hi everyone. I've been a lurker for over a year now and probably would have stayed that way. I'll give a proper introduction in the appropriate place, but this thread has prompted me to register and chime in with my two cents.

I've always been impressed by the high quality and general good humor of the discourse here. I too, have noticed the wheels coming off in the last few days. I don't want this group falling apart before I even get started! After Dex resigned, I took my first (and probably last) look at the Soap Box. I saw a side of many posters that surprised me and it gave a whole new (unpleasant) flavor to the forum.

Bottom Line: this forum is something special, there are many other places to vent political steam. I'm with Brewer - loose the Soap Box.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Best function ever. Ignore thread

 

[donheff]

I think the soap box has reduced the political element in other forums. I agree with REWhahoo that you can't separate politics entirely from ER topics. But it seems like the worst of the rants are confined to the Soap Box.

 

[brewer12345]

Otherwise, if we remove the soapbox then I think we would need to say no more political posts unless they directly relate to ER or at least R.

Fine with me. I put soap box on ignore last night, so we will see if that makes things better.

I think the soap box was a bad idea from the get go. If you set up a nuclear waste dump next to your house, you should not be surprised when the dog grows three extra tails and the cockroaches get to 8 feet long.

 

[REWahoo]

Fine with me. I put soap box on ignore last night, so we will see if that makes things better.

Good. I think you'll find the much reduced noise level a pleasant experience.

If you set up a nuclear waste dump next to your house, you should not be surprised when the dog grows three extra tails and the cockroaches get to 8 feet long.

Prior to consolidating in one spot, the nuclear waste was sprinkled through every room in the house. Not only were dogs and cockroaches mutating, but so were the wife and kids!

 

[HFWR]

I'm amazed that this thread, which began with an appeal for reason and civility, has degenerated so quickly. Have you no shame?

You have to ask?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I understand the mixed reaction to the Soapbox/Headline forum. I've gotten many more thank-you's on that than I have complaints. Mostly for the reasons in Retire@40s analogy of fly paper.

Two observations: many get inflamed by it but refuse to ignore it. That's a choice.

Second, because it was intended to carve out a big chunk of posts that most didn't want to read, I think the mods got a little lax in letting things go too far in some of those threads, partly because the thread was "safely" tucked away in that forum. Erred on the side of allowing too much stuff in violation of the board rules.

So I'd lean toward keeping the soap box, advising those who don't like it to ignore it, and having us mods apply the same rules and the same threshholds to Soapbox as we do to other forums.

I'm also OK simply not allowing political threads, but don't think its practical, and it makes mods really seem like even worse authoritatian censors than we already are .

 

[Kronk]

I think the soap box has reduced the political element in other forums. I agree with REWhahoo that you can't separate politics entirely from ER topics. But it seems like the worst of the rants are confined to the Soap Box.

I agree. Putting the Soap Box on Ignore has proven to me to be much better than the board was prior to the creation of the Soap Box. It gives an outlet for posts that would otherwise find their way into things I actually want to read about.

 

[Brat]

My old lady gut is telling me that people who pay attention to the financial world are under a lot of stress and getting testy. I don't think there is a perfect solution but maybe, sometimes, a poster should be told the internet equivalent of "Take a deep breath, close your eyes for five minutes, then take a 30 minute walk to consider the blessings in your life. Now you can see how unimportant that other idiot is and ignore the SOB." Others can construct the message with more tact and finesse than I.

My $0.02.

 

[Walt34]

I'll admit to being somewhat puzzled at how upset some can be at what is posted on this or any other forum. It' just typewritten words for Pete's sake! Remember the old New Yorker cartoon:

"On the Internet nobody knows you're a dog."

I think the Soapbox serves a purpose and agree with donheff - it draws the "worst" of it to a place where those who it bothers can ignore.

But then, I'm used to an environment where people sometimes threw rocks at me. Not just the rhetorical ones, real ones, so it takes more than words on a screen to annoy me.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

My old lady gut is telling me that people who pay attention to the financial world are under a lot of stress and getting testy. I don't think there is a perfect solution but maybe, sometimes, a poster should be told the internet equivalent of "Take a deep breath, close your eyes for five minutes, then take a 30 minute walk to consider the blessings in your life. Now you can see how unimportant that other idiot is and ignore the SOB." Others can construct the message with more tact and finesse than I.

My $0.02.

Nice, Brat. Good observations.

 

[Leonidas]

I prefer the combination of the Soap Box as flypaper and my ability to put it on ignore. Efforts by the mods to keep the Soap Box stuff in the Soap Box area will get my applause.

 

[Nords]

... I think the mods got a little lax in letting things go too far in some of those threads, partly because the thread was "safely" tucked away in that forum. Erred on the side of allowing too much stuff in violation of the board rules.

I think the mods do a fine job of balancing "Wet toxic spill on aisle four, cleanup crew to the decontamination facility" with all the piteously despairing cries of excessive jack-booted censorship.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Those Soapbox fans not understanding the concept of excessive moderation should put up a few posts at the Bogleheads forum... if you can get past the posting rules.

And for those who prefer minimal moderation, there's just about every forum on Morningstar as well as the entire wonderful world of Yahoo! Finance.

 

[Rustic23]

I put the Soap Box on ignore. GREAT!!!

As I am all far limiting political post, this does it for me.

Thanks.

 

[Zoocat]

Otherwise, if we remove the soapbox then I think we would need to say no more political posts unless they directly relate to ER or at least R.

I don't think that the forum loses anything by eliminating the soapbox. Dumping it would strengthen the forum, IMHO.

 

[clifp]

I don't think that the forum loses anything by eliminating the soapbox. Dumping it would strengthen the forum, IMHO.

I disagree. It is a few months before an election, many of us have the time and/or inclination to watch and comment on the election. The government does effect our retirement any many ways and so it can be difficult to separate politics from health care/money retirement discussions. In fact, I've yet to see a retirement discussion forum not contain a lot of political threads, exhibit A is the Motley Fool Early retirement forum.

The soapbox is a way to mostly contain discussions to one area and the folks who don't want to read or participate can easily ignore them.

Frankly, I find the problem to be far less the topic as the attitude of some of the long time posters. I think simply reflecting (or as Martha says take a deep breath) on how the person at the other end of your post may react to your post will do a lot for increasing the civility of the forum.

It really is NOT hard to disagree with someone without resorting to personal attacks. The vast majority of people on this forum a quite intelligent and capable of posting cogent arguments without reverting to Jr. High behavior. The original golden rule applies to the virtual world just as well as does to the real world.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Eh, inflamatory political/religion/sex threads are pretty easy to spot. You know one when you see one.

I've said it before a few times. All boards that grow hit this 'crap ceiling' and all of the ones that kept growing just put a warning in the rules that threads started or drifting too seriously into such areas will be closed/deleted.

People get the point after a bit. Its not about censorship. Its about not raising or tilting towards areas where people will become sharply polarized, actual 'learning' rarely occurs, and opinions are frequently unchanged.

Oh yeah, and theres that stuff about pissing people off and having the grumpiness carry over into other threads. Mad people stay mad for a while, but they dont stop posting.

So I'm kinda of the opinion that if you think it should be posted in the 'soap box', keep it to yourself. People who only come up with stuff that should be posted in the 'soap box' oughta fnd another place to post.

Polarization and giving people really interesting things to talk about that allow someone to sit back and watch the fireworks does not make a happy discussion group.

I want to talk about early retirement, investing, our lives, interesting bits of this and that, etc. I'm not remotely interested in why Bush sucks, what is actually Clintons fault, why liberals are idiots, why conservatives are jackasses, etc.

If I want that, I'll go looking for www.pissyourselfoffandeveroneelse.com

 

[Zoocat]

I disagree. It is a few months before an election, many of us have the time and/or inclination to watch and comment on the election. The government does effect our retirement any many ways and so it can be difficult to separate politics from health care/money retirement discussions. In fact, I've yet to see a retirement discussion forum not contain a lot of political threads, exhibit A is the Motley Fool Early retirement forum.

All true. But I've brought up issues related to the national deficit and really there has been no thoughtful discussion that has resulted. Mostly just knee jerk reactions based upon preconceived political opinions. I've yet to read a political thread on this board that brought out any new and thoughtful observations. Sorry, guys. I think that's just the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, I have learned much of great value by being a member of this board and basking in the intelligence of the other members on topics related to personal finance, life matters, health, etc.

My point was that focusing the board upon what it does best would strengthen it, while allowing peripheral sections, like soapbox, diffuse the purpose of the board.

But I'm not invested in the outcome of this and, soapbox or not, will continue to read and post here.

 

[ERD50]

The forum title just BEGS for problems

I agree with clifp a few posts above. I would like to point out a few things that I thing are contributing to some of the issues:

1) The TITLE 'Soap Box' is just wrong, IMO. This is supposed to be (I think?) a discussion forum, and the term Soap Box is generally used to describe someone that is just talking with no regard or desire for feedback or debate. You don't 'stand on a Soap Box' to discuss something face-to-face, you stand on a Soap box to make pronouncements. So why be surprised when some people do this? The title is asking for it.

2) Also in the Title: 'Headline News'? Don't we already have plenty of sources for news? Again, it seems to be asking people to just regurgitate headline news, w/o any thought behind discussion/debate, or 'what can we learn from this'.

Maybe the forum 'Other Topics' just needs to be split - 'General Topics not related to ER' And 'Political and Current Topics not Related to ER', or 'Hot Button Topics not related to ER' ( to help people who wish to totally ignore the 'hot button' topics), or something. What's in a name? Sometimes a lot.

3) FEEDBACK! I'm not sure I know what threads anyone is talking about. What threads caused trouble, where, which posts were OK, which are viewed as inflammatory? I'm sure many won't even bother to try to figure it out, so we don't get feedback on what is right/wrong. I am also confused about the infraction system here, because there is no feedback. How does anyone learn what is right/wrong when it is all secret?

As an example, after this '3 infractions and measures will be taken' was set up, I saw a thread where a long time poster engaged in very direct, obscene, degrading personal attacks, attacks on the OP, not the subject matter - it must have been four or five separate posts in that thread from him like that - yet, did anything happen? It appears not, he kept posting. All we saw was 'moderator edit' on the worst of it.

That thread was so bad, I would have been embarrassed if anyone looked over my shoulder - it would have been 'what the heck are you reading!!??'. It sends the message that personal, obscene, degrading attacks ARE OK, no problem, the mods will just edit the worst of it, have a nice day.

I'm not thrilled with the practice of shutting down threads because *some* poster/s push the rules. Sometimes, that means they 'win', and the rest of us who actually wanted to discuss the topic respectfully are left out. Punish the 'offenders', not everybody in the same thread.

Suggestions:

1) Mods should LABEL any posts that resulted in infractions - we will all see what is considered trouble. Maybe even show a count of how many times that post was reported as a problem (whether it resulted in infraction or not - at least we would know if the mods were made aware of the problem).

2) I'm sure this will be controversial, but think about it: It sounds like the mods have a little spreadsheet they share, so they can track the '3 violations in 120 days' rule. I say make it public. No, not to humiliate any specific posters, but so that we can see what is being tolerated, what is not, and also - maybe some of us will report offensive, disruptive posts that don't appear on that list. That should help clean the place up.

-ERD50

 

[REWahoo]

How does anyone learn what is right/wrong when it is all secret?

Secret?

Early Retirement & Financial Independence Community - Community Rules

 

[brewer12345]

In fact, I've yet to see a retirement discussion forum not contain a lot of political threads, exhibit A is the Motley Fool Early retirement forum.

I came here in the first place to get away from the toxic waste dump that place became. If this forum ends up like that one, I will be looking elsewhere.