Turning over a new leaf in the Soap Box

[Notmuchlonger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 Gak, please don't quote this stuff at length. Most of us have sihtbox soapbox on ignore for a reason...

I have soapbox on ignore too. However, I don't know which individual posters you have on ignore

[Rich_in_Tampa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westernskies Lets face facts, folks- the Soapbox had to go… It is getting too close to inauguration time! Please understand, there will be no criticism of the Messiah, effective January 1st. It was OK to openly bash the Republican Administration for the last few years, but CHANGE is coming to the FIRE forum, whether you like it or not.

What I found is that the value and civility of posts on other forums, like money, health, other topics, etc. dropped inversely with the heat and BS in the soapbox. I found myself enjoying the entire board (not just the soapbox) considerably less than I had before.

For example, hostile sarcasm seemed to pop up everywhere more often, even when irrelevant to the topic. Kinda' like the comments quoted above, a nice example of how even mentioning the soapbox brings out, well, not the best of the board.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa What I found is that the value and civility of posts on other forums, like money, health, other topics, etc. dropped inversely with the heat and BS in the soapbox. I found myself enjoying the entire board (not just the soapbox) considerably less than I had before. For example, hostile sarcasm seemed to pop up everywhere more often, even when irrelevant to the topic. Kinda' like the comments quoted above, a nice example of how even mentioning the soapbox brings out, well, not the best of the board.

From my POV the problem with this board is not too much vinegar, but too much cotton candy. You bite it, and it is gone. Too many threads that pretty much parse to "One More Reason Why We Are Better Than Everyone Else".

The other thing is, once one has been retired for a while, dealt with some good markets and some bad markets, and figured out how to spend his/her days, what the heck does s/he have to learn about retirement? Nothing, except details that come up occasionally where a well informed answer can be very helpful.


As for "educating newbies", I think that is nothing more than arrogance. How many newbies came here and people immediately tried to convince them to have larger equity allocations than they previously had. Not sure this helped.

For my part, it is more than enough to try to figure out what I want to do without appointing myself a helper to someone else- someone who may be closer to correct than I am at a given time.

There really isn't much to learn about early retirement. Here is the Cliff's Notes:

Don't develop expensive tastes. Maybe avoid children. Get a government job if you possibly can. Invest reasonably, maybe with some care about valuations. Be very careful about whom you marry. Best is someone similarly monomaniacal as yourself. Don't get divorced. If you do get divorced, get a good lawyer. Never ever go without health insurance. Move heaven and earth to satisfy this one. Drive old cars. Prefer old second hand clothes. Eat a diet similar to a teacher or low level bureaucrat in Egypt.

That is about all you need.

So how can we be expected to pleasurably kill time around here without joking and the occasional barfight?

Ha

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack But if you ever bring back a Soapbox, you can't impose a rule like the above though. You can't be polite or subtle with people who are wrong (we tried that to no avail), they will never appreciate those who are (usually) right.

Keep in mind the focus of this board. It's about early retirement. It's not about full contact politics; there are plenty of other places to go if you simply want to argue politics. In fact, I think your comment is evidence as to *why* generic political discussion needs the kibosh. It's because many people who enjoy full-contact politics are incapable of keeping it civil ("polite" and "subtle" to use your words) that we felt this is necessary.

You say we "can't be polite... with people who are wrong." Two problems here: first. you CAN be polite with people who are "wrong"; it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are evil or stupid. And if you can't, that's a clear violation of the terms of service and the community rules. That's one of the things that personally depresses me about political discussion; sometimes it seems like people can't accept that intelligent and well-meaning people can possibly be "on the other side."

The second problem is that there isn't usually a "right" and a "wrong." There are merely two different perspectives. Okay, in extreme cases there may be right and wrong, but that's not the norm.

I hate to say it in some sense, but in my opinion what you said is exactly *why* we need to get rid of the Soap Box as we know it. Too much allowance on politics tends to create an us-versus-them attitude that can harm the sense of community and common goal that should bring us together. This forum is about early retirement. When political issues relate to FIRE, respectful and on-topic discussion of the political aspects is acceptable. When it bursts into flames, and when it has nothing to do with FIRE, it just divides us and makes life miserable. Who wants that?

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy29 keep in mind the focus of this board. It's about early retirement. It's not about full contact politics; there are plenty of other places to go if you simply want to argue politics. In fact, i think your comment is evidence as to *why* generic political discussion needs the kibosh. It's because many people who enjoy full-contact politics are incapable of keeping it civil ("polite" and "subtle" to use your words) that we felt this is necessary. You say we "can't be polite... With people who are wrong." two problems here: First. You can be polite with people who are "wrong"; it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are evil or stupid. And if you can't, that's a clear violation of the terms of service and the community rules. That's one of the things that personally depresses me about political discussion; sometimes it seems like people can't accept that intelligent and well-meaning people can possibly be "on the other side." the second problem is that there isn't usually a "right" and a "wrong." there are merely two different perspectives. Okay, in extreme cases there may be right and wrong, but that's not the norm. I hate to say it in some sense, but in my opinion what you said is exactly *why* we need to get rid of the soap box as we know it. Too much allowance on politics tends to create an us-versus-them attitude that can harm the sense of community and common goal that should bring us together. This forum is about early retirement. When political issues relate to fire, respectful and on-topic discussion of the political aspects is acceptable. When it bursts into flames, and when it has nothing to do with fire, it just divides us and makes life miserable. Who wants that?

IT WAS A JOKE!!! Of course we can be polite and of course there's rarely a "right" and a "wrong" - sorry to anyone who thought it was serious.

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack IT WAS A JOKE!!! Of course we can be polite and of course there's rarely a "right" and a "wrong" - sorry to anyone who thought it was serious.

Thank you SO MUCH for explaining! I took it the other way, too, and was puzzled as it didn't like something the Midpack we all know would say.

[Bestwifeever]

The election being over, good idea to resume our regularly scheduled programming here on E-R.org.

And very nice of this board to use some of its bandwidth to provide us with the Soapbox during the election--thanks for that, Andy.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo As you know, last spring we opened a new experimental forum to isolate and hopefully reduce the political discussion in other forums on the board. Now that the election season has passed, we will close the current Soap Box & Headline News forum effective January 1. We will move posting of non-political headline news topics to "Other Topics" and add a new section for "FIRE Related Political Topics." We will also implement new rules (and reiterate some old ones) regarding posting on political subjects: 1. Any political or government/policy related post must be related to the subject of early retirement in more than a tenuous fashion. Posting to debate Sarah Palin's wardrobe, for example, does not meet this test. 2. Be polite. Treat those who disagree with you with respect even as you disagree. 3. Avoid sweeping generalizations and group characterizations (including generalizations regarding ideology and/or political party). Do not put aside collegial posting habits when you enter the newly renovated FIRE Related Political Topics Discussion section. Thanks for your continued participation and help with a fresh start for the New Year. REWahoo and the entire Moderator Team

So the mod team has decided that its a good idea to dump the cesspool into the drinking water and then spend their time trying to ensure water quality by using a teaspoon with holes in it? Tell me again why this is a good idea?

[Rustic23]

I think the SoapBox did exactly what it was suppose to. People that were not interested in the type of topics posted there put it on ignore. People that were stayed there and the rest of the board remained free of the stuff that was spewed there. Well for the most part. I think you are going to find that without it the 'Free Speech' stuff will come back, people will be drawn in by trolls to meaningless arguments, and the moderators jobs will become harder not easier.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 I think you are going to find that without it the 'Free Speech' stuff will come back, people will be drawn in by trolls to meaningless arguments, and the moderators jobs will become harder not easier.

That gets back to ownership using SEO & Adsense to draw in everyone on the Internet who thinks "early retirement" means that we're interested in what they're selling.

Or in guys like Capt Karl, whatever he's selling...

Now if Google & Adsense were used to draw in people who want to use the Soapbox as a totally separate board, yet still part of the SocialKnowledge system, then our E-R.org moderators wouldn't have to put up with trolls or Soapbox backflush!

[Sarah in SC]

Ha, I hope we'll while away the hours here on the fabulous "other topics", like bacon, old cars, dance, movies, books, and travel destinations...and don't forget our various bodily ailments and disabilities.

I believe that the basic civility of all of us will improve if we don't know each other's politics and that this is a positive change for the tenor of the board discussion.

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

Someone in Iraq throwing a shoe at President Bush is NOT relevant to FIRE.

Someone threw a shoe at Sarah Palin, but she threw it back 'cause it wasn't a Prada.

[Bestwifeever]

I have a good friend who has completely stopped communicating with me since right before the election. She was involved in a political discussion with someone else (not related to me as family or friend, just another acquaintance), their discussion was completely amenable as they were both on the same side, and "her" candidate won (whom I also voted for, which she knew I planned to, but did not financially support as she did). Apparently the fact that I simply did not join in the bashing but continued talking about something nonpolitical with another acquaintance was enough for her to write me off.

There was a reason politics and religion were taboo subjects for the dinner table. I miss her.

On the other hand, REWahoo's reference to "we'll know it when we see it," makes me perk up hoping there will be some good old fashioned p*rn joking around (I believe that "it" was pornography in that quote)! Bring it on!

Somehow we all managed to visit this board and have a ton of fun on it pre-Soapbox. I don't see what that will be any different now that the election is over and the Soapbox is on hiatus. Unless some of you are mad at me for not supporting someone enough, like my friend

[REWahoo]

Feever, two points:

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Originally Posted by Bestwifeever I have a good friend...

I think the correct wording might be "had"...

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Originally Posted by Bestwifeever On the other hand, REWahoo's reference to "we'll know it when we see it,"

...and Gumby gets the credit for Justice Potter Stewart's porn comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby To paraphrase U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart -- "We'll know it when we see it."

[freebird5825]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bestwifeever I have a good friend who has completely stopped communicating with me since right before the election. ...Apparently the fact that I simply did not join in the bashing but continued talking about something nonpolitical with another acquaintance was enough for her to write me off.

This happened to me with 2 acquaintances.
I listened politely to their pitch to get me to vote "their way", but told them both I was apolitical with friends, as a rule. I would not engage.
I believe in the curtain at the polling places - voting is private as a personal freedom of choice.
I guess that was too radical.
Oh well...

[Bestwifeever]

Gumby, Gumby, of course. I don't know why I think REWahoo when I think "it."

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bestwifeever Gumby, Gumby, of course.

[Martha]

Nobody complained or noticed?

[Martha]

I don't mind heated discussions and we aren't always going to be polite. But snarky sarcasm is a big problem in political discussions. Maybe it is because the same people tend to participate and they become frustrated with each other because minds rarely change.

Ha, I don't see us as becoming a bunch of namby pambies. We still will argue about health care, tin foil hats, how cars are sold.

Sam, you pointed out some issues/fine lines. We will feel our way out as we go. If anyone questions a topic you can always pm a mod or admin and get some feedback.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha Ha, I don't see us as becoming a bunch of namby pambies. We still will argue about health care, tin foil hats, how cars are sold.

Martha, I think you will be proven right. I don't really like dumb arguments either, but they don't bother me. I either contribute a little, or walk on by.

But I do think that separating politics from the rest of life is more or less impossible. Politics is trying to create alliances to get more of what your group wants, at the expense of what the other group wants. This is pretty much life's core issue, outside of the spiritual and very personal. An interest in politics is necessary for active investment management.

Last night I saw a very good 1 1/2 hour PBS piece on the life and career of Lee Atwater. In spite of the basically disapproving stance taken "Wasn't he a bad thing for American politics?", it was interesting and Lee as a man was attractive in that special way of a typically conflicted and messed up and ironic Southern man. I absolutely love thinking and talking about people and things like this. I have one friend with the interest, smarts, education and freedom of mind for this kind of discussion. He is a retired professor. He lives in another Puget Sound City and we meet once a month, but I would sure enjoy more. I think many people here have the capacity for this kind of discussion too.

But I understand your and the other mods points.

Ha