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Old 01-18-2014, 11:29 PM   #41
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Serious question; why wouldn't someone move closer to work if this was the case. I've never worked far from work. Always moved closer if need be.
I commuted 120 miles a day for 10 years. Why, because I could watch turkey, deer, bobcat, fox fight for mating rights in my 'front yard'. I had the privilege to hold hummingbirds, cardinals, screach owls, and hawks in bare hands.

I couldn't do that in a suburban yard. Was if worth the cost? It was to me. YMMV.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:36 PM   #42
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I think I am a minority here in that I love being an Architect. Being an Architect is great--but the introduction of money changes the dynamics for me. When money is introduced it becomes work for me in certain situations.

About 3 years ago I opened my own office and it has been successful, but a lot of my work has been consulting for other firms. But I have had a fair number of projects I have done on my own and that portion of work I enjoy. A lot of my work is doing work for startup micro-breweries, I love beer and I love architecture, a great combination!

I am 'retiring' in about 180 days (not that I am counting) but I am retiring from feeling I have to bring a certain amount of income in. The project I am consulting on is a great project and it is a good firm and a good client, and they gave me a very generous hourly rate AND let me work from home and yet I am still looking forward to my retirement date. It is because I have to fit within their schedule and be creative within a time frame, etc.

But with my own work the creativity and 'when' I do the work is on my own time and somehow is very different. Plus I can choose to do the project or not, depending on my schedule or whim.

So while I won't be doing Architecture for free, I also won't be doing it for the money. I am designing a little garden shed/studio office for my backyard, and I love it. I like doing design work, it is the office politics, commute, etc I didn't enjoy.

So even though I am retiring I am also not retiring. I look at it more like a hobby, one that I am good at and can make money at. But if I don't make any money at it, I am totally fine with that.
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:30 PM   #43
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Serious question; why wouldn't someone move closer to work if this was the case. I've never worked far from work. Always moved closer if need be.
Maybe this is more of a NYC thing, but it is very difficult and costly to own a car in NYC with its traffic and parking challenges. I lived in Manhattan for a short time when I started working before moving to Long Island because I felt trapped in Manhattan. I wanted to be able to own a car and have some mobility. My friends and family were on LI, too.

If one is renting, it is easier to pack up and move somewhere else. But if you own your own place, it is not easy to simply sell it and move elsewhere.

And finally, one can have a reasonable commute to a place not far away but what if the company relocates? That for me was the final straw when its move from lower Manhattan to Jersey City, NJ, made an already barely tolerable commute into one which was even worse. And I was not going to sell my co-op just to move to Jersey City, an area I had no desire to live in. It was far more satisfying to ditch the job than ditch the apartment, which is why many of us are in this forum!
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:10 PM   #44
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I found this article about loving working to be very thought provoking.

I really like her criticism of Job's commencement speech "do what you to love"
Quote:
But by portraying Apple as a labor of his individual love, Jobs elided the labor of untold thousands in Apple’s factories, hidden from sight on the other side of the planet—the very labor that allowed Jobs to actualize his love. This erasure needs to be exposed. While DWYL seems harmless and precious, it is self-focused to the point of narcissism. Jobs’ formulation of DWYL is the depressing antithesis to Henry David Thoreau’s utopian vision of labor for all
That being said I have many people in real life and sure seen plenty on TV shows like Undercover Boss that loved their jobs even without been a Silicon Valley entrepreneur. Two that stand out was waiter and a mechanic. My family meet the waiter 30 years ago. He was probably near 60 and had been Pullman car waiter, but he took such pride in his work at nice but not super fancy restaurant that when I and ask the question "Wow you an amazing waiter why not go work at the nicest place in Atlanta" he talked about how much he loved his coworker, the boss, and the customers.

The second person that I know loved his job was an airplane mechanic. Again he took great pride in fixing things at minimum cost.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:54 AM   #45
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Having a hard time separating out what is job and what is career. I really do love my career and my profession. A lot of what is associated with my job is very distracting, and comical at times.

In a few weeks I expect to be laid off again. There is another possible job, but twice as far. If I mentioned the distance, some of you with a real commute would certainly lol. The combination of longer drive and the boss over there has convinced me that unemployment payments will be quite fine for awhile.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:28 AM   #46
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I commuted 120 miles a day for 10 years. Why, because I could watch turkey, deer, bobcat, fox fight for mating rights in my 'front yard'. I had the privilege to hold hummingbirds, cardinals, screach owls, and hawks in bare hands.

I couldn't do that in a suburban yard. Was if worth the cost? It was to me. YMMV.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:05 AM   #47
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I am working from home with no commute. I am getting paid 6 figure doing no more than 2-3 hours of work each day. Each morning, I boot up my company laptop along side my PC which is running one of my trading account platforms.

I watch news online. Listen to music. Visit message boards such as this one. Running errands throughout the day. No one from megacorp seem to be concerned as long as I attend the occasional meetings or respond emails quickly enough.

I am utilizing the technical skills that I picked up more than 20 years ago and it is more than enough to handle this job. I have not picked up a technical book, nor attend a training for years now.

DW said this is easy money. I think of it as my retirement job. So, I do not hate it, except I simply want a full retirement since my number looks good ever after hypothetical 10% market haircut. Well, if it goes down 20%, that will be a different story.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:55 PM   #48
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I'm a "16%'er".

I've spent my career working for "the man". Most of the time I've actually really enjoyed it. What has really mattered to me was the specific "man" or "woman" to whom I reported. I've been lucky enough to have been given lots of freedom to chart my own path and make decisions. I know I'm in the vast minority on that. Now I sort of am the man so I'm hoping never to have a sense that I have coworkers on this site discussing their tortured existence...

I think that there are some people that are asked "do you like your job?" and answer yes because they do like the work but do not like their boss. I hear some of the stories on here and I just can't imagine how managers get so out of touch. I still love developing people's skills, watching them take chances and seeing them succeed. I just now want a simpler life without the responsibility for others. One and a half more years and I'll have one final group ready to say "we don't need him anymore". My deadline for that is 7/1/15.
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Old 01-20-2014, 02:44 PM   #49
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Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to spend so much of their life in a j*b they don't enjoy doing.

Someone said that in order to say you enjoy your work, you would have to want to do it without getting paid. I say precisely! Starting out when microprocessors were first coming on the scene, I was obsessed with doing projects with them. Funny thing is that I started getting very well paying consulting jobs from people seeing my projects, and eventually went full time. I thought, wow they will pay me for this?

Later, I could have gotten w*ork an hour away from where I was and made a lot more money, but never even considered it. I see people now working miserable lives to get a few more things. I was recently at an associates extremely lavish home. I found myself feeling sorry for them rather than envious. It must be hard to want stuff so badly that you get deep in debt and will work like the devil.

I tell my kids that they should follow their passion, but pay for it themselves. Life is too short to do otherwise.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:07 PM   #50
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I am working from home with no commute. I am getting paid 6 figure doing no more than 2-3 hours of work each day. Each morning, I boot up my company laptop along side my PC which is running one of my trading account platforms.

I watch news online. Listen to music. Visit message boards such as this one. Running errands throughout the day. No one from megacorp seem to be concerned as long as I attend the occasional meetings or respond emails quickly enough.

I am utilizing the technical skills that I picked up more than 20 years ago and it is more than enough to handle this job. I have not picked up a technical book, nor attend a training for years now.

DW said this is easy money. I think of it as my retirement job. So, I do not hate it, except I simply want a full retirement since my number looks good ever after hypothetical 10% market haircut. Well, if it goes down 20%, that will be a different story.
That sounds very much like my last few years, only after awhile I cut back to half-pay and was only obligated to sit in front of the laptop 20 hours/week. Eventually the little bit of work slowed enough that they moved the work offshore and gave me the option of a different job which wouldn't be nearly as sweet, or an exit package. I took the latter.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:41 AM   #51
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I found this article about loving working to be very thought provoking.

I really like her criticism of Job's commencement speech "do what you to love"
Wow. I thought she completely missed the point/message of Job's speech. Different strokes...
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:38 AM   #52
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Wow. I thought she completely missed the point/message of Job's speech. Different strokes...
That was my take too. It seemed like she had a point she wanted to get across about capitalism exploiting workers, so she read into his speech what she wanted to hear and completely misinterpreted his original meaning.

She might have a valid point about capitalism, and might be angry with Jobs for having his factories in China, so used him as a target.

While some might indeed have to give up making more money to do what they love, it has been my observation that more often then not, they make more.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:45 PM   #53
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A lot of us probably liked our jobs years ago, in the beginning. That's why we did what we did. Times change and jobs do too. And we have to change with it. I think a lot of why people really like their jobs has to do with being in control of the situation, too. Being able to come in late or take the day off whenever wanted. And having a sense of purpose. For me, the job environment changed and the purpose also. Not all of us get to be explorers or astronauts. Once we reach a point where we don't need the job...our attitudes change and we don't have to endure something that is not fun anymore, even for the money. And that's why I retired a couple weeks ago.

And I might add:
"I'm glad I did it, partly because it was worth doing, but mostly because I'll never have to do it again."....Mark Twain
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:53 PM   #54
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I enjoyed my job in mega pharma for close to 17 years. As an account manager (read salesman) my boss was 2 states away - I worked out of my house. I developed good relationships with my Drs and buyers (for the most part). As long as your numbers were good - you were left alone.
I took a promotion to Regional Manager, way better money. After a couple bad full co. years (rif) they cut down the sales force and management and I was doing 2X the work and travel on the same pay. I burnt out fast. Thank heavens I never thought the career would last and saved as much as I could from day one. The thought of still being there now makes me ill..

I think people can enjoy their work if they are given some freedom - w/o that it's all down hill.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:59 PM   #55
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That was my take too. It seemed like she had a point she wanted to get across about capitalism exploiting workers, so she read into his speech what she wanted to hear and completely misinterpreted his original meaning.

She might have a valid point about capitalism, and might be angry with Jobs for having his factories in China, so used him as a target.

While some might indeed have to give up making more money to do what they love, it has been my observation that more often then not, they make more.

I disagree. Her point is doing what you love is something that is only possible for a very small percentage of the worlds population. If you passion is film, running, medieval history, organic farming, sailing, computer games, designing clothing, or Harry Potter, your chances of making a decent living following your passion are pretty damn slim. If you are very talented and quite lucky you can a make lot of money, in film, computer games, or clothing design. The rest if you are talented and lucky you'll make an average wage.

Most people aren't very talented (meaning top 1-5%) in anything. The demand for painters, actors or singers who are better than 90% of population is roughly zero and the pay is the same. If you aren't in the top 1% you have no hope of making a decent living in many fields. Her discussion of the plight the struggling grad students in liberal arts, I think illustrates the problem very well.

But society has a real need for garbage men, logistic coordinators, meeting planners, buyers, actuarials, network admins, call center operators, and maids that probably nobody dreamed of doing when they were asked "what do you want to do when you grow up."

Now when Jobs tells a group of elite Stanford graduates "do what you love, some of them maybe talented enough to and many would have the connections to actual succeed at following their passion. But for the rest of the world, it is a pipe dream and sets an unrealistic expectation.
As well as telling people you are loser if you are not passionate about or love your job.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:22 PM   #56
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I enjoyed my job in mega pharma for close to 17 years. As an account manager (read salesman) my boss was 2 states away - I worked out of my house. I developed good relationships with my Drs and buyers (for the most part). As long as your numbers were good - you were left alone.
I took a promotion to Regional Manager, way better money. After a couple bad full co. years (rif) they cut down the sales force and management and I was doing 2X the work and travel on the same pay. I burnt out fast. Thank heavens I never thought the career would last and saved as much as I could from day one. The thought of still being there now makes me ill..

I think people can enjoy their work if they are given some freedom - w/o that it's all down hill.
My dad had the same job Pharma rep, and also a brief stint as a manager. The best thing about the job was his boss mostly left him alone and he got to work out of the house. He was by nature a bit of introvert,and had very little interest in the industry. The science was mostly over his head. The doctors like him because if they said they had 5 minutes, he only take 5 minutes. He ranged between tolerating and hating the job which he did for 25 years. My guess is my dad was an slightly above average salesman.

My dad also had a passion which was woodworking and in that he was extraordinarily talented. He built almost all of my mom's furniture, plus many pieces for my sisters and I. Countless room addition and a house from scratch. He is magnus opus was this all wood airplane, that he built from blueprints. He and I flew it across the country on many occasions and it flew as good as looked, nearly 200 MPH.

I urged him many times to follow his passionate and quite big pharma and do woodworking for a living. He told me that if took money for the work, it would feel like a job,and he just didn't want that. I don't know about which would have made him more happy. But it was really clear that he made more money as drug salesman than he would have as cabinet maker or something. The money enable him to retire at 55 and build the airplane, something I doubt would have happened, if he listened to Jobs or myself.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:52 PM   #57
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I absolutely loved what I did for the majority of my working life. On the very few occasions that I had to do a job which wasn't what I really wanted to be doing, I still found ways to make each day interesting and bearable. There are always people to share a few words or a joke with, things to see, or a different perspective from which to view things. If all else fails, you can always retreat into your own head and find some interesting things to think about. I mean, how bad can life be unless whining and complaining is your vocation?

It's true that not all of us can be at the top of vocational professions that we love but then we don't all want to be - many of us are not driven in that way. If I ever fulfill my dream to live full-time in an RV and need occasional work, I think I could have a lot of fun working in a gift shop in a National Park. There would be plenty of interesting people to meet and when there weren't, fantastic views to be had.

There is nearly always a way to make life not just bearable, but enjoyable.

PS - the job I had which I didn't want to be doing was that of a motorcycle courier in Los Angeles. However, on some days I was able to go home and tell my GF that I had delivered a package to Nicholas Cage's house, and he had come to the door wrapped in a towel, still wet from the shower, to sign for it (true story), or that Jack Palance had come to the door in a dark purple smoking jacket and winked at me as he signed for his package (another true story and a classic Jack Palance moment). I also got to deliver packages to the houses of Fabio, Victoria Principal, Toni Basil, Bernie Taupin (Elton John's songwriting partner) and a whole bunch of others. Riding around on a motorbike 6 or 7 days a week, 14 hours a day, was gruelling, but fun at times and boring at others. Thankfully, I had a few spills, and was pulled into the office to answer phones for 6 months before I found my dream job for the next 16 years.

Then that company closed down, I was laid off, and the dream ended. Thank goodness I saved and invested.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:19 PM   #58
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I disagree. Her point is doing what you love is something that is only possible for a very small percentage of the worlds population. If you passion is film, running, medieval history, organic farming, sailing, computer games, designing clothing, or Harry Potter, your chances of making a decent living following your passion are pretty damn slim. If you are very talented and quite lucky you can a make lot of money, in film, computer games, or clothing design. The rest if you are talented and lucky you'll make an average wage.

Most people aren't very talented (meaning top 1-5%) in anything. The demand for painters, actors or singers who are better than 90% of population is roughly zero and the pay is the same. If you aren't in the top 1% you have no hope of making a decent living in many fields. Her discussion of the plight the struggling grad students in liberal arts, I think illustrates the problem very well.

But society has a real need for garbage men, logistic coordinators, meeting planners, buyers, actuarials, network admins, call center operators, and maids that probably nobody dreamed of doing when they were asked "what do you want to do when you grow up."

Now when Jobs tells a group of elite Stanford graduates "do what you love, some of them maybe talented enough to and many would have the connections to actual succeed at following their passion. But for the rest of the world, it is a pipe dream and sets an unrealistic expectation.
As well as telling people you are loser if you are not passionate about or love your job.
When I was young I wanted to be a cowboy, then a microbiolgist that discovered the cure to a terrible disease, then an oceanographer. The first two, no, but I did get to dabble a bit in the third one. Yes you are right not everyone will get a chance to do what they love, film, midieval history, and not everyone will be in the top 1% of anything, I think 99% will not make the top 1%. And not everyone will save enough to ER. But that doesn't mean you dont try. I don't consider myself a failure because I never became a cowboy, nor should anyone consider themselves a failure because they didn't get to pursue their dream. But not having a dream, or having only one dream, yes then you can consider yourself a failure.

When I worked in a machine shop, I loved that, then started getting into computers and someone suggested that I should get into programming machines. NO WAY! I wanted to model biological populations. I had no interest in that stupid stuff. Turns out, that became my passion. I loved to program things that moved. I really loved it. I have seen other programmers who hated their jobs, but I loved mine.

In fact I loved my first job at 13 as a window washer. And the coffee breaks hearing the old guys talk about their WWII exploits, the train rides the prostitutes. I was determined to be the best window washer in the place, and I think I was. Then started painting (not art, interior walls), and I loved that too. As time went on I found different passions, but I have to say I did enjoy them.

Sure there will always be the need for garbage men and ditch diggers. But you know, there are a lot less garbage men, ditch diggers than there used to be, but more ditches being dug, garbage picked up.

Also I dont buy it that most people arent very talented. I think the opposite. Most people are not in positions where their talent is exposed or utilized. And you know, just like I enjoyed programming, there are people that love logistics, coordinating meetings, etc. It depends on how much control you have, and how much authority you have to make a difference.

Of course there are some people who will never find passion at work. That is fine, no failure at all in that! They find passion elsewhere, raising a family, religious activities, music, etc.

But all that does not diminish the importance of what Jobs was saying. Just because 100% cannot do something does not mean that you should not try. And just because you dont do it doesnt make you a failure. Different strokes..
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:03 PM   #59
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Now when Jobs tells a group of elite Stanford graduates "do what you love, some of them maybe talented enough to and many would have the connections to actual succeed at following their passion. But for the rest of the world, it is a pipe dream and sets an unrealistic expectation.
As well as telling people you are loser if you are not passionate about or love your job.
+1 on that post!

Very few will be able to make a good or even great living doing only what they want to do.

There were a multitude of factors that made me want to go into police work. It was interesting, although I grossly underestimated how boring things can get during the slow times. That can vary wildly depending on the area. In large cities it can be call after call after call every minute. I would not have been able to do that. Others thrive on it.

But for an introvert there were major pluses. I saw the boss for a 20-minute meeting at the start of the shift and then was pretty much left alone unless there was a major event. We had take-home cars early on and could put an AM/FM radio in it and that was great on midnight shifts.

Another major factor was that it paid enough were I was to have a decent middle-class standard of living. Growing up only "rich people" bought new cars, stayed in hotels or dined in restaurants. I didn't see the inside of a restaurant until I was in high school, and that was a pizza place. And although I didn't give it a thought at age 22 it came with a pension plan that in hindsight is very good. While I'll never be wealthy I'll never be living in a trailer either.

Just for interest, while we've seen this prediction before, in an era when self-driving cars are being seriously discussed by other than science-fiction writers, it does seem a stronger possibility than ever.

Will the robot 'jobocalypse' make YOU obsolete? 2014 could be the year a droid takes your job, say experts | Mail Online.
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