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Old 11-14-2010, 09:08 AM   #41
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In a long ago post I asserted the same. Calories in v calories out.

Simple example: In Auschwitz the captives were on a severe caloric restrictive starvation diet, the results were not photogenic. There were no overweight captives, there or at Birkenau.
That example illustrates the nuance of the calories in v. calories out issue. In my hypothetical pill example above, I made the point that the pill was only four calories, yet it made you ravenously hungry. So you ended up eating more.

The captives didn't have the option of eating more. You do. If the kind of calories you take in cause you to become irresistibly hungry, you will go to the kitchen and eat more.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:12 PM   #42
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Once I heard Gary Taubes speak at UW. Various audience members were coming up with this or that objection to his low carb weight loss ideas. I was recognized to speak and I told how I and my brother had lost weight low carbing, he some serious weight, and I asked for a show of hands of people who had given an educated, serious try at low carb weight loss, and had failed at it.

No one raised their hand.

I lot of people just like to find reasons why "it won't work"-even though it is working all around them. This attitude is just a preferred life adjustment for them.

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Old 11-14-2010, 12:24 PM   #43
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The Twinkie diet story is a bit of a problem for me. As you've mentioned, Ha, we are constantly bombarded with the "avoid saturated fat, eat grains and fruit" message, so there's always that question in your mind: "maybe I'm wrong."

For me, the best argument for low carb is that although I've increased my consumption of meats by at least five-fold, I've lost weight instead of gained it. That argument seemed pretty ironclad.

But if someone can lose weight eating Twinkies, then that argument isn't as strong.
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:00 PM   #44
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The Twinkie diet story is a bit of a problem for me. As you've mentioned, Ha, we are constantly bombarded with the "avoid saturated fat, eat grains and fruit" message, so there's always that question in your mind: "maybe I'm wrong."

For me, the best argument for low carb is that although I've increased my consumption of meats by at least five-fold, I've lost weight instead of gained it. That argument seemed pretty ironclad.

But if someone can lose weight eating Twinkies, then that argument isn't as strong.
Al: Did you lose weight eating Twinkies? Would it be possible to survive long term eating Twinkies? Would a Twinkie, or pancake, or apple pie diet make you feel ravenous a few hours on? Could anyone stay on a Twinkie type diet for years?

It is highly likely that not everyone has the same metabolic makeup. So isn't the world big enough for Twinkie dieters and cheese omelet dieters to coexist without the the opposite numbers feeling challenged? I know a high carb diet works for some, as every time I go out to the UW I see hundreds of very thin Asian students eating udon.

These kind of questions tend not to occupy me much, though I know others are different.

I started low carbing in 1997, and tighened it as I learned more about where the carbs are found. After an initial 15# weight loss, my weight is pretty much nailed, like a your speedometer running cruise control across Kansas. And my health is better, in spite of getting older by the by.

As a famous Mexican philosopher/bailing wire mechanic profoundly spoke-"Se sirve, seņor". Which I took to mean, "it works, buddy".

Ha
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:02 PM   #45
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But if someone can lose weight eating Twinkies, then that argument isn't as strong.
I think it's support for your "if you're hungry, you'll eat more" statement. If I had a pallet of Twinkies in my refrigerator then I'd have to put a timer lock on the door for portion control, or use one of those rat-pellet feeding machines.

My spouse's dining discipline annoys the hell out of me is impressive. When we don't work out as much, she "just" eats less. When I don't work out I probably eat more just because I have the extra time. My adjusting to eating less has been a painful prolonged effort to overcome the body's learned responses and my own brain chemistry...
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:29 PM   #46
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But, folks, low carb diets work because they can depend on satiety to control food intake (and perhaps for other reasons). The twinkie diet controlled calories of intake. They're not at all comparable. Maybe our professor of human nutrition was ravenous the whole time and would have gained lots if he had permitted his appetite free rein.
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:36 PM   #47
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The Twinkie diet story is a bit of a problem for me. ...

For me, the best argument for low carb is that although I've increased my consumption of meats by at least five-fold, I've lost weight instead of gained it. That argument seemed pretty ironclad.

But if someone can lose weight eating Twinkies, then that argument isn't as strong.
I don't think it is a problem. The twinkie guy was a researcher, motivated to stay on the diet to make his point. I seriously doubt that most people could keep their calorie counts down with that diet. I saw a blurb on GMA with the guy, 1800 calories of junk food is not very much food. I think I'd feel like I was starving and I would not stay on the diet.

The question is, how many calories are you eating with your diet? If you are keeping your weight down, and other signs are good, then that is probably a "good" diet for you. It may not be the only one though.

Haha's story of the Taube's meeting doesn't tell me much - that is a self selected group. I actually have big problems with what I've read from Taube's - but that doesn't mean his conclusions are wrong. I guess you could say I'm more skeptical of Taubes himself than I am of anyone who says a low carb diet is working for them (I'm not really skeptical of those people at all - I guess I still question if that is the only thing that works for them, but that's irrelevant if they are happy with their diet).

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Old 11-14-2010, 01:47 PM   #48
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Haha's story of the Taube's meeting doesn't tell me much - that is a self selected group. I actually have big problems with what I've read from Taube's - but that doesn't mean his conclusions are wrong. I guess you could say I'm more skeptical of Taubes himself than I am of anyone who says a low carb diet is working for them (I'm not really skeptical of those people at all - I guess I still question if that is the only thing that works for them, but that's irrelevant if they are happy with their diet).

-ERD50
Obviously selected, but they seemed to have different reasons for showing up. It was in the medical school, and attracted a lot of people who were not true believers. Also, a goodly number of overweights and the usual "but what about" types, who just enjoy the mental stimulation of criticizing things. That is why I asked a practical question- "have you tried it, and failed?"

I sometimes get a bit weary of professional critics. It's just one more way of avoiding action, and action is the purpose of life. I do think it's pretty funny that the medical profession worries about low carb diets, but recommends "bariatric" surgery.

Ha
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:58 PM   #49
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It's just one more way of avoiding action, and action is the purpose of life. I do hihnk it's pretty funny that the medical profession worries about low carb diets, but recommends "bariatric" surgery.

Ha
LOL - I'm with you on that one! Kinda like the old saw, 'to a hammer salesman, every problem looks like a nail'.

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:28 PM   #50
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That example illustrates the nuance of the calories in v. calories out issue. In my hypothetical pill example above, I made the point that the pill was only four calories, yet it made you ravenously hungry. So you ended up eating more.

The captives didn't have the option of eating more. You do. If the kind of calories you take in cause you to become irresistibly hungry, you will go to the kitchen and eat more.
I added the bolding.

Thus the importance of having "won't" power instead of "will" power. Options, options, options. What to do?

The difficulty of living in the land of easy, and of plenty cheap food. The individual always has choices. Choices have consequences.

The bottom line still remains, if there is no or very low caloric input, regardless of quality, there can be no weight gain.

Wish I had a nickel for every time I heard an overweight person say, but I hardly eat. Yeah right, by whose standards?

A distressing scene I witnessed a few weeks ago while camping in a small park: A very chubby kid about five or six years old walking about with a bag of potato chips nearly as big as he was, under his armpit a bottle of caramel colored soft drink. At no time in a couple of days they were there, did I see this kid without dragging a bag of chips and constantly munching on them. His parents looked like a 100lb over their normal weight.
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:18 PM   #51
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If you look at Haub's sample day, he takes in 1589 calories of which 9 x 59 = 531 calories come from fat. This means 1058 calories come from other than fat. If these all came from carbohydrates, he would be getting 67% of his calories from carbohydrates. However, he doesn't tell us the actual amount of carbohydrates that he is eating. There is significant protein in his diet (e.g the Muscle Milk Protein Shake), but he doesn't tell us the total daily amount of protein either. According to the data on food labels, a typical 2000 cal/day diet would include 1200 calories from carbohydrates, or 60%. Since he never tells us how many grams of carbs he is eating per day, we don't know. If it's less than 60%, he could still be "low-carbing" relative to the average diet.
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:25 PM   #52
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If you look at Haub's sample day, he takes in 1589 calories of which 9 x 59 = 531 calories come from fat. This means 1058 calories come from other than fat. If these all came from carbohydrates, he would be getting 67% of his calories from carbohydrates. However, he doesn't tell us the actual amount of carbohydrates that he is eating. There is significant protein in his diet (e.g the Muscle Milk Protein Shake), but he doesn't tell us the total daily amount of protein either. According to the data on food labels, a typical 2000 cal/day diet would include 1200 calories from carbohydrates, or 60%. Since he never tells us how many grams of carbs he is eating per day, we don't know. If it's less than 60%, he could still be "low-carbing" relative to the average diet.
Though many/most people on the SAD (standard American diet) get way more than that in carbs, including lots of refined grains and sugar.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:30 PM   #53
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Maybe our professor of human nutrition was ravenous the whole time and would have gained lots if he had permitted his appetite free rein.
Yes, I think that's true. I would have predicted that after several weeks, he would have been so hungry that he would have said "To hell with this study" and stopped limiting calories.

Taubes cites some research that says that simply limiting calories works fine for about 5% of the population. It's true that there are many different metabolic types out there.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:49 AM   #54
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Folks claim that protein-rich diets are satiating and help dieters lose weight by feeling full, and we're all assuming that a carb-rich diet will encourage more eating. I think the professor may have found a way around the overeating problem. Anyone who has worked long hours and been forced to rely on the office vending machine for sustenance know that after a day or so the bloom is pretty much off the rose.
"Dieting Journal, Day 5: Ate one Little Debbie Super Sugar Danish for breakfast. I'm not sure that thing is going to stay down. The thought of Ho-Hos again for lunch darkened my morning."

I think the kind of carbs is important. Flavorful Italian pastas in rich sauces and many varieties? You'll eat plenty, look forward to eating, and get fat. A limited choice of vending machine fare composed of high fructose corn syrup and emulsifiers? Not so much desire for a second helping.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:22 AM   #55
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Not so much desire for a second helping.
Or from the sounds of it the first serving.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:43 AM   #56
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I think the professor may have found a way around the overeating problem. Anyone who has worked long hours and been forced to rely on the office vending machine for sustenance know that after a day or so the bloom is pretty much off the rose.
"Dieting Journal, Day 5: Ate one Little Debbie Super Sugar Danish for breakfast. I'm not sure that thing is going to stay down. The thought of Ho-Hos again for lunch darkened my morning."
Upon further reflection, it does sound like the ultimate aversion therapy...
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:30 AM   #57
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Those aren't bad, but I'd opt for the Chocodile (a chocolate covered Twinkie).
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