ACA trouble. Appeals court rules subsidies illegal

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What about our ability to pay? And also that US taxpayers end up subsidizing the pharmaceuticals in that they get tax deductions for their R&D costs.

Is getting tax deductions for R&D that unusual in other industries?

As far as our ability to pay, USA, Canada, Europe, Japan, Australia have a much higher level of wealth per citizen than most third world countries. We think nothing of paying $5 for a latte when that can buy a week's worth of food in other countries.

Investors poured nearly a billion dollars into drug maker Affymax and it is going bankrupt after it's FDA approved drug caused fatal reactions in some patients. Investors might get back about $0.08 to $0.10 a share. This is just one example. A profitable drug coming to market is such a rare event, it has to be priced at a level to make up for all of this failed research or investors will not be willing to spend those billions on Affys. What you get then is very few new drugs.
 
You're totally missing the point. As I understand it certain drugs are much less even in Canada and their ability to pay is no different from ours. US consumers get gouged by the drug companies.

While R&D deductions are available in other industries, that doesn't have anything to do with the point. The point is that since the drug company gets a tax benefit for the cost of US R&D in effect US taxpayers end up subsidizing the development of these drugs and then the drug companies turn around and sell them ate preferential prices abroad.

I would like to see the playing filed leveled more and pricing be consistent worldwide. In today's world economy, US consumers and taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing the exportation of drugs outside the US.
 
You're totally missing the point. As I understand it certain drugs are much less even in Canada and their ability to pay is no different from ours. US consumers get gouged by the drug companies.

While R&D deductions are available in other industries, that doesn't have anything to do with the point. The point is that since the drug company gets a tax benefit for the cost of US R&D in effect US taxpayers end up subsidizing the development of these drugs and then the drug companies turn around and sell them ate preferential prices abroad.

I would like to see the playing filed leveled more and pricing be consistent worldwide. In today's world economy, US consumers and taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing the exportation of drugs outside the US.

In today's world economy, US consumers pay much less per gallon of gasoline than Canadians. Would you like to see that playing field leveled and pay $6 a gallon (or even $9 a gallon as in Europe?). Prices are different in different countries due to regulations and other factors. Deal with it.
 
Do you have a "hard time" understanding why a car windshield - composed primarily of sand, which costs a whopping $.06/lb - costs hundreds of dollars?

Do you have a hard time understanding why a microprocessor costs hundreds of dollars, yet is only composed of raw materials that costs a few bucks?

Perhaps you have found a new business opportunity. Simply manufacture titanium plates and screws with a press in your garage in your spare time, and you'll be able to make a mint!
I would call this a false choice argument. The two choices are not sell for the cost of materials or for an exorbitant amount. That is why you can buy an iPad for less than a couple of medical screws.
 
One thing that would make drugs, and medical costs, go down is to reduce the need for a doctors prescription for most drugs. You can go to a Dr. if you want, but if you think you need one of the drugs you see on TV, why not just mail order it? There is plenty of information on credible website to diagnose many issues. Then, volume of the drugs would go up, and the companies could make more on overall.

I have even seen a asthma patient in CO be prescribed medical marijuana to smoke before recreational pot was legal. So, a doctor's prescription is not an answer to curbing abuse.

Most of these drugs are not habit forming, and you could sign a waiver of risk. Even having legislation reducing lawsuits would go a long way. Even some recreational drugs could be developed to help reduce costs on medically necessary drugs.

When I was visiting Mexico, many years ago, I needed a prescription. I just stopped into the pharmacy there, and about $3 later, the pharmacist diagnosed and prescribed me a medication. I did not waste an hour of a clinic time and have a bunch of expensive lab tests done.

Letting more Doctors into Med School would go a long way too. Anyone that wants to get into Med school should be able to. Why limit the number of Doctors being trained?
 
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I would call this a false choice argument. The two choices are not sell for the cost of materials or for an exorbitant amount. That is why you can buy an iPad for less than a couple of medical screws.

I am sure if the medical screw manufacturer gets an order for 10,000,000 screws in a quarter like Apple does with Ipads, they would be willing to drop the price a tad. Are you saying you will place that order?
 
I would call this a false choice argument. The two choices are not sell for the cost of materials or for an exorbitant amount. That is why you can buy an iPad for less than a couple of medical screws.

Anything related to the medical industry is involved with multiple layers of sterile handling and record keeping to prove chain of custody and sterility. (Add $). Your iPod/iPad/iPhone doesn't care if it's exposed to a few drops of rain on the package, or is packed in an environment that has just any old ambient humidity in some dirty Chinese warehouse or number of human hairs falling into the package.

Anything related to the medical industry is always involved with the potential of lawsuits. (Add $). True, if it's pure titanium that has been approved by the FDA for human implants, they have a good defense...but it's a given that ALL lawyers will go after the "deep pockets" theory, and sue EVERYONE that has an ability to pay, not just a doctor that messes up an operation. And even if no one is at fault, the medical device manufacturer will either settle for some money to put the litigation to rest and move on to save legal fees, or pay the legal fees to defend themselves in court and have to increase their cost of production for those legal fees.

Anything that does not have high volume will, of course, have higher marginal production costs, compared to a higher volume product. (Add $). Note: all of your subcontractors that make these small screws must have a separate machine in a sterile environment for this production. They also must factor in the lawsuit item that I mention below, as well. So that's a double Add $. No one's going to sell a screw for $5 that cost them $4.50 to make, if they get sued 1 time and have to settle for $100,000 in partial liability. Just $100,000 for 1 settlement means you have to sell a hell of a lot of screws just to break even!

Anything with a relatively smaller volume will also have, on a unit basis, a higher overhead/distribution cost per item, with various levels of management and sales reps. (Add $).

Anything that is an FDA approved impact must go through various FDA tests, perhaps even clinical trials. (Add $)

Anything that is sold must have some design and R&D in order to get to the finished product. (Add $)

Anything that is sold usually has additional future R&D to make the product even better, and/or to meet other competitors' advances when they bring competing products that might be even better to the market. (Add $)

Odds are, whatever you have as the finished product could easily have had several other competing designs from the company that was shelved because it didn't work, and that R&D cost and other costs associated with that development were lost forever. (Add $).

Add up all of those - and more factors! - and you suddenly have a product that must have quite a bit of money added to every unit sold in order to produce profits to the company. Many of the above factors are either not present at all, or not present to the same high degree (like lawsuits) as in nearly any other industry.

Of course - if you think that cost is extreme, there's no one holding a gun to your head saying that you HAVE to have a titanium implant put into your body. You can go through life with a destroyed hip joint, or wrist, or knee, or shoulder, and live with the pain of not being able to use it, and/or confined to a wheelchair. Or fly to some other country to have the implant installed there.

(yes, there are some people that have reactions or don't like their implants...but overall, the # of people that have kept them obviously must be greater, or there wouldn't be a market for these devices after a while....)

Do I think some aspects of the healthcare system are overbloated and could be more efficient (including medical implants)? Of course. But to simply make blanket statements comparing a product's raw material cost to the finished product (especially for a medical implant) is preposterous.
 
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I am sure if the medical screw manufacturer gets an order for 10,000,000 screws in a quarter like Apple does with Ipads, they would be willing to drop the price a tad. Are you saying you will place that order?


If I read previous posters comment correctly, it did not say anything about the manufacturer charging the price. It was the hospital charging the cost. Which goes back to the $20 aspirin, etc.. Which goes back to people showing up to hospital for treatment and not paying.. Which goes back to .....


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Let's be fair. There are plenty of things that are free market when you can shop for and know the cost of before you purchase so it isn't the fact that medical services are free market that is the problem. Medicine needs to and is heading in the direction of being more transparent albeit frustratingly slowly.


Part of the problem is that patients often have more wrong with them than the doctor can tell upfront or suffer from complications.


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I am sure if the medical screw manufacturer gets an order for 10,000,000 screws in a quarter like Apple does with Ipads, they would be willing to drop the price a tad. Are you saying you will place that order?
Another false choice argument.

Medical care in this country is simply overpriced and the titanium plate cost is just one example. When we, as a nation, start delivering equivalent outcomes for equivalent costs to other wealthy nations, I'll believe the industry's complaints.
 
Another false choice argument.

Medical care in this country is simply overpriced and the titanium plate cost is just one example. When we, as a nation, start delivering equivalent outcomes for equivalent costs to other wealthy nations, I'll believe the industry's complaints.

I love your counter arguments. "Another false choice argument."

You must have won the debate club championship every year.
 
I love your counter arguments. "Another false choice argument."

You must have won the debate club championship every year.
No, but I know a hyperbolic argument when I see one.
 
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