Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Affordable Care Act Lawsuits
Old 08-16-2014, 07:58 PM   #1
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Affordable Care Act Lawsuits

I know we had a big thread on this, but if anyone is interested CSPAN had a Cato discussion on the topic:
This was about the law saying it had to be a State exchange in order to get a subsidy.

Discussion Affordable Care Act Lawsuits | Video | C-SPAN.org

Very interesting.
__________________

__________________
jim584672 is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-16-2014, 08:16 PM   #2
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Senator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Eagan, MN
Posts: 3,045
The ACA genie is out of the bottle. Whatever needs to be passed, will be passed. ACA is not going anywhere, and no one will have to pay for health care soon.
__________________

__________________
FIRE no later than 7/5/2016 at 56 (done), securing '16 401K match (done), getting '15 401K match (done), LTI Bonus (done), Perf bonus (done), maxing out 401K (done), picking up 1,000 hours to get another year of pension (done), July 1st benefits (vacation day, healthcare) (done), July 4th holiday. 0 days left. (done) OFFICIALLY RETIRED 7/5/2016!!
Senator is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 12:57 AM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,260
I see a pig in the future on this thread... even though I kinda like the various discussions that this law instills...


This is a interesting video... and a lot more detail than what most people here put down...

We will see what happens in the end... even if this tax credit (subsidy) issue is held to be illegal... I bet that there will be enough people who will want to get them in the 36 states that they will be passed...

But this is a legal issue that most people will not agree with one way or the other... it will be interesting to see what the final outcome is... follow the exact wording or not....
__________________
Texas Proud is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 06:29 AM   #4
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 61
The "citizens of states which do not set up their own exchanges will not get Federal subsidies" argument in the lawsuit is supported by the very thin thread of a minor drafting error in the language of the law. If this lawsuit is upheld:

a) It will open the door for challenges to any law in which a plaintiff can find a minor legislative drafting error that upends the intent of the law. This may make the lawsuit difficult for judges support as it's a green light for lawsuits against any law you dislike that happens to have a minor drafting error.

b) As Texas Proud notes, Congress would be under immense and immediate pressure from constituents in the 36 states in question to correct the minor drafting error

By the way, since the lawsuit was filed, no one has been able to find a single Democrat, Republican or health care analyst who (as the law was being debated and drafted) who asserted the law was intended to work this way.
__________________
footenote is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 08:09 AM   #5
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Short of the Supreme Court hearing the case and and clearly asserting that "State exchange = Federal exchange", which would settle the issue, the next President could issue a re-interpretation and in effect make the law subject to a States "subsidy veto", for those States that do not set up an exchange.

I do not agree that the language in the law is an error at all, but exactly reflects the political reality at the time it was passed. The verbiage us used several times and is cross referenced.

Side point, I don't care since my state has its own exchange, so this doesn't affect me.
__________________
jim584672 is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 09:37 AM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,264
Separate from any health care law discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by footenote View Post
...
a) It will open the door for challenges to any law in which a plaintiff can find a minor legislative drafting error that upends the intent of the law. ...
That door has always been open, as it should be.

It is the lawmaker's responsibility to draft laws with wording that reflects the intent. We are not supposed to be mind readers (was that a mistake, or the intent?).

And our Founding Fathers built in a solution to this problem - someone can challenge the law, and take it to the Supreme Court for interpretation - the very thing you don't want to see.

I'm not letting Congress off the hook for incompetence - writing laws is their job! Do it right!

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 09:43 AM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
ACA is not going anywhere, and no one will have to pay for health care soon.
Free. Hah.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 09:52 AM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
ACA is not going anywhere, and no one will have to pay for health care soon.
Free. Hah.
When they find that guy "no one", he's gonna have a big bill to pay! I sure hope he's part of the 0.0001%!

Thanks to "no one" for that!


I guess I should not be surprised that someone with the handle "Senator" thinks this way?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 09:59 AM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,885
Funny that with all the other crazy news out there, I forgot all about the ACA lawsuits.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 10:01 AM   #10
Dryer sheet aficionado
noone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
When they find that guy "no one", he's gonna have a big bill to pay! I sure hope he's part of the 0.0001%!

Thanks to "no one" for that!
People always expect Noone to pay the bill...
__________________
Noone knows everything
noone is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 12:00 PM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Senator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Eagan, MN
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I guess I should not be surprised that someone with the handle "Senator" thinks this way?
-ERD50
I am not a Senator, not am I am fan of the ACA. But most here are fans of Medicare, and ACA subsidies. And I fully plan on taking advantage of both of them.

But that is the natural tendency of Government, give away as much as you can to get votes.
__________________
FIRE no later than 7/5/2016 at 56 (done), securing '16 401K match (done), getting '15 401K match (done), LTI Bonus (done), Perf bonus (done), maxing out 401K (done), picking up 1,000 hours to get another year of pension (done), July 1st benefits (vacation day, healthcare) (done), July 4th holiday. 0 days left. (done) OFFICIALLY RETIRED 7/5/2016!!
Senator is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 12:37 PM   #12
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 61
ERD50 - I'm not arguing one should not be able to challenge any law. I love that about the U. S. of A.!

My point was that the precedence could encourage more of these types of lawsuits, and that the judiciary might not be thrilled about the prospect of that outcome, thus influencing their decision.
__________________
footenote is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 12:40 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by footenote View Post
The "citizens of states which do not set up their own exchanges will not get Federal subsidies" argument in the lawsuit is supported by the very thin thread of a minor drafting error in the language of the law. If this lawsuit is upheld:

a) It will open the door for challenges to any law in which a plaintiff can find a minor legislative drafting error that upends the intent of the law. This may make the lawsuit difficult for judges support as it's a green light for lawsuits against any law you dislike that happens to have a minor drafting error.

b) As Texas Proud notes, Congress would be under immense and immediate pressure from constituents in the 36 states in question to correct the minor drafting error

By the way, since the lawsuit was filed, no one has been able to find a single Democrat, Republican or health care analyst who (as the law was being debated and drafted) who asserted the law was intended to work this way.

Did you watch the video.... they gave many examples of laws with the same language and that nobody would question that it was a drafting error... in fact, at the time there were people who wanted it changed because they read into it what is being challenged in court...


The other remedy that was presented by the panel was that the 36 states could actually set up an exchange and there would be not issue... the other issue they brought up is that if the state did not set up an exchange, then the companies in the states do not have to provide insurance... this is the other side that is not talked about much...


Sorry to say, I do not think it was a drafting error and now the people who wrote the law are upset they wrote it this way...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 12:57 PM   #14
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
mpeirce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Columbus area
Posts: 1,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by footenote View Post
The "citizens of states which do not set up their own exchanges will not get Federal subsidies" argument in the lawsuit is supported by the very thin thread of a minor drafting error in the language of the law.
Of course it's on purpose. The idea was to coerce states into setting up their own exchanges.

There is this from 2012: from MIT professor Jonathan Gruber (one of the architects of the law) saying that that if states donít set up their own exchanges, their citizens canít get the subsidies. (around minute 31+ if the link doesn't take you directly there).
__________________
mpeirce is online now  
Old 08-17-2014, 05:19 PM   #15
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 61
Until this lawsuit is resolved by the highest possible court (i.e., either heard by a higher court or the higher court declines to hear it letting stand whatever lower court decision was reached), this will be my last post in this thread.

Re: several arguments, including regarding Gruber:

5 media mistakes in the Halbig debate - Vox

I solemnly promise that I will post here and eat a pound of crow if my prediction (that this will be a wet squib) is incorrect.

Love, peace, out (from this TX-born Girl)
__________________
footenote is offline  
Old 08-17-2014, 06:00 PM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by footenote View Post
Until this lawsuit is resolved by the highest possible court (i.e., either heard by a higher court or the higher court declines to hear it letting stand whatever lower court decision was reached), this will be my last post in this thread.

Re: several arguments, including regarding Gruber:

5 media mistakes in the Halbig debate - Vox

I solemnly promise that I will post here and eat a pound of crow if my prediction (that this will be a wet squib) is incorrect.

Love, peace, out (from this TX-born Girl)

Well, there already is a split among courts at the same level... and the one video said there were two more rulings coming out soon... so the best anyone can get is a 3-1 on their side...

I just wonder what happens if the Supreme Court does not hear it I really cannot see this happening.... but there always is a chance... would that mean some of the 36 states get subsidies and some do not

A lot more to come on this... and I am in one of the states that might lose the subsidy... I am not getting it now, but was hoping to get that credit on my tax return when I file... At least I did not go for the silver plan in anticipation of getting it...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 10:23 PM   #17
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
An update...
Supreme court will hear the case King v. Burwell.

Supreme Court will hear newest challenge to Affordable Care Act - The Washington Post
__________________
jim584672 is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 11:32 PM   #18
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by footenote View Post

....no one has been able to find a single Democrat, Republican or health care analyst who (as the law was being debated and drafted) who asserted the law was intended to work this way......
And during the legislative debate no legislator claimed that the HI enforcement penalty was a "tax". That had no bearing on SCOTUS finding that the penalty was indeed a "tax" rather than an (unconstitutional) penalty for not purchasing a private product (HI). That 'minor' distinction was critical in them allowing the ACA to pass constitutional muster.

Heaven only knows what SCOTUS will do with other ACA-related cases
I stopped trying to predict SCOTUS behavior many, many years ago.

FWIW- Like many others, SCOTUS ACA subsidy decision will not effect me one way or the other.
__________________
ERhoosier is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 05:52 AM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,410
That is obviously because no legislator wants to be associated with new or increased taxes. Simply politics. [mod edit] It isn't going away, has resulted in some improvements, and the sky hasn't fallen as many predicted.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 08:50 AM   #20
Full time employment: Posting here.
GTFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 634
I have a feeling they picked up this case specifically to end all the useless lawsuits about the ACA, given that Justice Roberts stretched to call the penalty a tax in the first place. Under no scenario do I see Roberts (the tiebreaker) going back on what he did 2 years ago especially given the massive impact this would have on those already getting subsidies, so it's probably a good thing they're getting it over with.

The ACA will be tweaked going forward, but it is here to stay. Just like Medicare, Social Security, etc. There is no serious effort that will result in repeal or it being overturned and the pragmatic folks on both sides realize that, so we'll eventually get past the edge cases. I also think that the Medicaid expansion will happen across the board, just a matter of time there too given all the money that states are losing out on. Arkansas is a prime example of how it could be done (allowing private insurance for Medicaid).

Note that I am expecting to get subsidies, but regardless of my own benefit here it would not change what I think will happen.
__________________

__________________
GTFan is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act’’. MichaelB FIRE Related Public Policy 4 11-24-2009 07:25 PM
House "Affordable Health Care for America Act" M Paquette FIRE Related Public Policy 192 11-18-2009 02:04 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:53 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.