all insurances NOT in ACA subsidized plans

[gerrym51]

in reading more about ACA plans insurers will bid on the plans. the subsidized plans will not be the same as the unsubsidized.

 

[bondi688]

I think I am beginning to understand the situation. Subsidy cannot be available to everyone, a certain income level has to be used , you may debate whether it is too arbitrary, too high or too low, and the true cost of health insurance coverage, if not subsidized by the employers or the government, will be shockingly high. The only thing one can do is to reduce the withdrawal rate to stay below the cut off level to avoid paying the unsubsidized rate until one qualifies for MediCare. But is that not cheating in some sense : if one has millions sitting in a retirement account, but withdraws only $30000 a year so he qualifies for the low rate?

 

[gerrym51]

I think I am beginning to understand the situation. Subsidy cannot be available to everyone, a certain income level has to be used , you may debate whether it is too arbitrary, too high or too low, and the true cost of health insurance coverage, if not subsidized by the employers or the government, will be shockingly high. The only thing one can do is to reduce the withdrawal rate to stay below the cut off level to avoid paying the unsubsidized rate until one qualifies for MediCare. But is that not cheating in some sense : if one has millions sitting in a retirement account, but withdraws only $30000 a year so he qualifies for the low rate?

yes but you will not have your choice of health plans. subsidized plans tend to be bid on by providers that supply mostly medicaid plans-at least that is what happened in mass.

these low cost providers offer plans that pay low rates to doctors-so doctors don't enroll in them. you can get subsidized plan but don't count on your doctor or facility to be in it.

 

[MichaelB]

State exchanges will determine which plans are offered. So far, 18 states have firm plans for single state exchange, 7 will partner, and 26 (including DC) will default to a feredally run exchange. Until they actually start putting plans out there, we really don't know what they will offer.

 

[bondi688]

yes but you will not have your choice of health plans. subsidized plans tend to be bid on by providers that supply mostly medicaid plans-at least that is what happened in mass.

these low cost providers offer plans that pay low rates to doctors-so doctors don't enroll in them. you can get subsidized plan but don't count on your doctor or facility to be in it.

Well if the budget allows only Big Mac and French Fries, I will not (and not entitled to) complain that it did not taste as good as those at Ruth's Chris.

 

[wanaberetiree]

But is that not cheating in some sense : if one has millions sitting in a retirement account, but withdraws only $30000 a year so he qualifies for the low rate?

I am always straggle with this dilemma personally. The question is - one lived LBYM and saved millions and another (with same wages) did not save at all. How about qualification review?

 

[gerrym51]

State exchanges will determine which plans are offered. So far, 18 states have firm plans for single state exchange, 7 will partner, and 26 (including DC) will default to a feredally run exchange. Until they actually start putting plans out there, we really don't know what they will offer.

1

 

[bondi688]

I am always straggle with this dilemma personally. The question is - one lived LBYM and saved millions and another (with same wages) did not save at all. How about qualification review?

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

 

[wanaberetiree]

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

I am with you on that. But it still it feels unseemly and difficult to make those type of decisions based on size of saving account without considering life-time contributions to society, taxes paid etc. and fairness overall.

 

[gerrym51]

State exchanges will determine which plans are offered. So far, 18 states have firm plans for single state exchange, 7 will partner, and 26 (including DC) will default to a feredally run exchange. Until they actually start putting plans out there, we really don't know what they will offer.

in mass. subsidized plans-BMC healthnet,celticare,fallon,networkhealth,neighborhood health.


NON subsidized-Blue Cross,Tufts,Health New england,Harvard pilgrim,tufts,fallon.

the first 4 Non subsidized plans do not supply to mass medicaid-the rest do.

the rest that do have very restrictive networks and facilities because they pay providers less.

the big four did not make subsidized plans available.

i believe this will apply all over the country

 

[wanaberetiree]

in mass. ....

So, do you guy who live in Mass - do you like your HC or not?

 

[MichaelB]

I am with you on that. But it still it feels unseemly and difficult to make those type of decisions based on size of saving account without considering life-time contributions to society, taxes paid etc. and fairness overall.

If you make your financial decisions based entirely on your needs and requirements you should have no worries. If your decisions result in tax credits, they are no different than any other credit you are entitled to.

 

[wanaberetiree]

If you make your financial decisions based entirely on your needs and requirements you should have no worries. If your decisions result in tax credits, they are no different than any other credit you are entitled to.

Yes, this is how I as an individual getting rid of "external" events that may impact my life.

But, if you look at who gets HC subsidy vs who does not?

 

[gerrym51]

So, do you guy who live in Mass - do you like your HC or not?

Our health care in general is excellent.I have no complaints.

However this issue is the price of insurance. the connector functions like Obamacare exchanges.

since i did not seek a subsidy i cannot speak for others

 

[haha]

This is the nature of reality when market factors are subverted. It becomes a cat and mouse game, the government sets its parameters, the citizens who can, try to minimize or avoid paying by modifying their behavior, the government declares this citizen behavior immoral and changes the rules, the citizens try to respond to these new rules, and you soon have a situation like the tax code. It is impossible to understand, economically very costly, and guarantees abuse and political corruption, etc. It is also morally debilitating to all concerned. That is why it engenders bad feelings in some who are involved, and almost every observer who feels that one way or another, others are cheating while he is not.

Almost everyone would feel better about himself if he thought he was getting a fair deal, and that he did not have to engage in this finagling. Of course, once the politics of envy really gets going, it is hard to impossible to kill.

Ha

 

[youbet]

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

+1

I too hold little respect for folks with huge financial resources tapping into public funds just because they're smart enough to work the system. Yeah, it's legal under existing laws / rules. Yeah, it probably doesn't amount to enough cost to the tax payers in aggregate to fight it. Yeah, it's a part of our American culture (especially Illinois culture) and considered hip and progressive. But no matter how I try to get myself motivated to try to join the ranks of those beating the system, I can't. I can afford to pay my own way and therefore do.

It's so bad, I even opt to buy my MIL's groceries every week when she could be on SNAP due to her low income.

This isn't something I'm proud of. I feel like a patsy. It's just not in my genes to sip from the public pond when I have my own bucket of water. I wish I could find a way to overcome these feelings so that the money saved could be passed on to my son and grandchildren.

 

[wanaberetiree]

I too hold little respect for folks with huge financial resources tapping into public funds just because they're smart enough to work the system. ...

It's so bad, I even opt to buy my MIL's groceries every week when she could be on SNAP due to her low income....

... It's just not in my genes to sip from the public pond when I have my own bucket of water. ....

Well, you know personally I am not even accounting SS into my calculations and I see the point, BUT...

You have two individuals, who made exact same amount during life time, paid same amount of taxes. One had saved crazy millions (say $1.5MM) and another had saved nothing ($Zero, I think it's $24K average retirement savings in the US). Now, one is easy qualified for HC subsides and another is struggling with moral dilemma and little respect, because he is "tapping into public funds" by managing his yearly withdraws. Does it make sense?

 

[bondi688]

youbet
The merits of your decision have their own rewards.

For others who make the perfectly legal and entitled choices according to the established rules of the game , I mean no disrespect nor bear any holier than thou sentiment.

 

[marko]

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

There's an old saying: "how do you think a man with my money got to be man with my money?" <grin>

Seriously, I know of several folks who are millionaires who drive 10 year old cars, eat our rarely and wear clothes that are five years old. If they're living the same life as someone making $60K, why shouldn't they get the same lifestyle benefits?

I"m always amazed at a mindset to penalize those who've LBYM, pay their bills, paid millions in taxes over their lifetimes and entered into social contracts (SS/Medicare) and then when it's time to pay up are being questioned as to their being deserving. THAT'S whats not fair.

 

[clifp]

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

I have different philosophy, I fully intend to game ObamaCare and some years qualified for a health care subsidy, by shifting income from one year to another.

I am also getting an electric car, beside the silly $7,500 tax credit. I get several perks in Hawaii. All large private and all public parking are required to have charging stations, which are place right by handicap parking spaces.

Plus I don't have to pay for parking at any parking meters or public parking lots. Now I can make a tenuous case why charging stations are good public policy (why they have to be upfront I don't know). But I can't possibly make any case why me or my fellow wealthy electric car owners need free parking. So I will happily write a letter to the newspaper, post on Facebook, the forum. Suggesting that this perk that I receive is unneeded and should be eliminated.

I'll do the same thing about a multimillionaire getting a health insurance subsidy. Although in the case of ObamaCare I am pretty sure that additional cost of the insurance will more than make up for my small bi-annual subsidy.

 

[sengsational]

I"m always amazed at a mindset to penalize those who've LBYM, pay their bills, paid millions in taxes over their lifetimes and entered into social contracts (SS/Medicare) and then when it's time to pay up are being questioned as to their being deserving. THAT'S whats not fair.

Agreed. And it's the same story with financial aid for college: penalize the family who saved, reward the guy who spent. I'm sure there's holes to be poked in my alternative, but if two families have the same income on the on their social security statement (mine shows every dollar earned since my grocery bag-boy days in 1975), then the two families should get the same treatment, irrespective of what they did or did not save. The FAFSA formulas expect the parent to drop about 6% of their savings per year into the college bucket. Two kids, 8 years, your savings gets cut in half, so the ant and the grasshopper are much closer in assets now, that's fair, hehe. Back around to health care, though, and even in financial aid, you can't get blood out of a turnip. Or the reason why the bank robbers rob banks. --Dale--

 

[gerrym51]

i just studied the page for the 5 subsidized plans that are available on the massachusettes health care connector. they are carbon copies of masshealth(the massachusttes medicaid program). the only differences i see are larger co-pays for non approved drugs.

the problem with this is they also give providers the same fees as masshealth which are so low many providers won't accept the plan.

the more i study this the madder i get. if obamacare is a copy of mass. in mass the subsidies only apply to health plans designated for subsidies, the subsidies do not apply to the gold,silver,bronze plans

only to the same exact plan that all the providers of the subsidized plan uses.

 

[pb4uski]

I strongly believe in and practice LBYM, but my thought was that it is slightly unseemly to pass oneself off as having minimal income to take advantage of subsidy not meant for those who are actually worth millions.

While I understand your point, I have decided that I will structure my finances to optimize my taxes and benefits. The way I rationalize it is that I paid mucho taxes during my accumulation phase, many years I paid more in taxes than many people earn in a year and since my earnings were 99% wages, there wasn't much that I could do other than max out my 401k and suck it up. It's payback time.

We don't seem to view optimizing SS by using various claiming strategies as a problem, nor taking advantage of 0% capital gains taxes by keeping withing the 15% bracket, or being tax efficient by putting bonds in our tax-deferred accounts so why would people who have no concerns with such things view optimizing the subsidy as unseemly?

 

[heeyy_joe]

I intend to play by the rules. That's fair isn't it?

 

[ERhoosier]

If you make your financial decisions based entirely on your needs and requirements you should have no worries. If your decisions result in tax credits, they are no different than any other credit you are entitled to.

Agree 100%

Many financial items in ACA are rather arbitrary, but SCOTUS has ruled it is now the law of the land. I see no reason that managing one's affairs consistent with this law should cause any heartburn. Should a 71yo millionaire feel guilty about taking his/her annual IRA required min distribution (RMD) instead of paying the IRS's 50% excise tax?