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Old 02-05-2013, 09:14 AM   #41
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Sounds like a high carb diet, which I would consider counterproductive (and that seems to be what you experienced).
You might get the results you want, in terms of blood lipids, with a low carb, high fat diet. I know I did.

Worked for us too. My doctor said "whatever you are doing, keep doing it". My cholesterol levels are fantastic when on a low carb diet.

Statins may artificially lower cholesterol levels but they are not reducing inflammation, which is the real issue.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #42
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So, now I'm really confused.
Are we to go low carb or high fat. If we go low carb, are saturated fats ok ?
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:55 PM   #43
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So, now I'm really confused.
Are we to go low carb or high fat. If we go low carb, are saturated fats ok ?
Yes.
The confusion comes, I think, from the constant bombardment of "low fat" claims and advice.

But think about it:
You have carbs, protein and fat.
You don't want to increase your protein too much, because if you do, your body treats the excess as carbs (essentially converting protein to carb and dealing with it that way).

So if you decrease your carbs, the fat has to go up accordingly.
The amazing part is that you learn that saturated fat is not the demon it's made out to be.

Do some reading on it (RonBoyd has posted a number of sources) and it all becomes clear.

For a concise treatment, I would recommend two books, Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, and Diet 101 by Jenny Ruhl.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:02 PM   #44
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Saturated fats and trans fats are not OK. People are too focused on cholesterol. I don't worry about the cholesterol content or unsaturated fat content of any of my food. It is the type of fat you eat that is important. I mostly eat foods that have high unsaturated fats, which it turns out is not good for weight reduction, but is good for cardiovascular health. There is lots of information on this around, but here is a link. Choosing the right fats for your diet | GoodFats101 eliminating the bad fats is also the basis of the so called 'Mediterranean diet' Mediterranean diet for heart health - MayoClinic.com

My father was in several early cholesterol trials in the 1970's, and I remember at the time that they said all fats were bad, and he couldn't even eat eggs or any other food that contained cholesterol. It turns out that was using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut. There are different kinds of fats, and some, like unsaturated fat, are really good for cardiovascular health. The saturated fats and trans fats are what are bad for you, much much worse than than the cholesterol levels of food. And it depends upon the source of the saturated fat, apparently. Some research show that saturated fats from plants like coconuts are not bad like the saturated fats from animals. And animal saturated fat is worse than dairy saturated fat.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:08 PM   #45
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I am a pharmacist. although i am overweight all tests for various diseases
come in at normal ranges.bp/glucose/cholsterol/psa/etc.

I would NOT take a prescription drug unless a test showed I needed it. they do have side affects and i would not take one unless necessary.

unless a test showw you are out of normal range-do not take one.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:36 PM   #46
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Seems like the normal range is a moving target. Especially in the cholesterol racket.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:44 PM   #47
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So, now I'm really confused.
Are we to go low carb or high fat. If we go low carb, are saturated fats ok ?
Just to confuse things further for you since we are going off topic onto various dietary belief systems, I believe that all calories beyond what is necessary for adequate nutrition are detrimental regardless of the source (carbohydrate, fat or protein). This page has links to plenty of material if you want to see the research that has brought me to this conclusion: Calorie restriction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note: There are days when I decide that a big meal (which might include a nice steak with baked potato or a big bacon sandwich) now is worth giving up a few healthy hours/days at the end.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:56 PM   #48
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Just to confuse things further for you since we are going off topic onto various dietary belief systems, I believe that all calories beyond what is necessary for adequate nutrition are detrimental regardless of the source (carbohydrate, fat or protein). This page has links to plenty of material if you want to see the research that has brought me to this conclusion: Calorie restriction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note: There are days when I decide that a big meal (which might include a nice steak with baked potato or a big bacon sandwich) now is worth giving up a few healthy hours/days at the end.
Dietary belief systems is right. It is more dangerous to talk about what is healthy than to discuss politics or religion.

Calorie restriction has shown a lot of promise for health and longevity in rats and, from what I have read, people too. I have also read that you should take a gradual approach to it. Jumping on the calorie restriction bandwagon too quickly can be counterproductive. I have not been able to try this myself because my two beers with dinner would become my two beers for dinner.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:43 AM   #49
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Sorry to hear that johnnie.
But what makes you think the statins are connected to your arthritis ?
Steven, I did not mean to imply that statins were connected to my arthritis woes. I was confusing my weakness, sore ankles and difficulty in walking to my knee problems. Now that both knees have been replaced due to the arthritis, I was thinking that I would be back to normal and would be able to walk easily again. Wrong! Now I'm starting to believe that my problem maybe with me taking simvastatin for years. I'm making an appointment today to see my doctor for a discussion on this subject.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:11 AM   #50
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Steven, I did not mean to imply that statins were connected to my arthritis woes. I was confusing my weakness, sore ankles and difficulty in walking to my knee problems. Now that both knees have been replaced due to the arthritis, I was thinking that I would be back to normal and would be able to walk easily again. Wrong! Now I'm starting to believe that my problem maybe with me taking simvastatin for years. I'm making an appointment today to see my doctor for a discussion on this subject.
Opinions are cheap and all over the place. One doctor will say, dump the statins another doctor will say they are not the problem. The bottom line is that statins are well known for causing muscle pain. I have no idea whether what you are experiencing is the type of symptom that could be due to statins but it is easy enough to test. Drop the statins for several months and see how you feel. This isn't a life and death issue like some meds - you are not going to fall off a cliff the day you quit your statins. Seems like a perfect situation for a self experiment. If you get better, great - stay off the statins. Doesn't matter why it works, maybe its psychosomatic. But relief is relief. If there is no change, go back on the statins and rest assured that they are not causing your symptoms.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:33 AM   #51
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Okay, my cardiologist returned my call and she said "the preventive attributes of statins, including decreasing risk of blockage formation in the heart and brain arteries, is well agreed upon."
She also said the risk of serious side affects are very small and tend to occur at dosages much higher than 10mg.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:13 AM   #52
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if you don't need e'm don,t take em.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:16 AM   #53
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Opinions are cheap and all over the place. One doctor will say, dump the statins another doctor will say they are not the problem. The bottom line is that statins are well known for causing muscle pain. I have no idea whether what you are experiencing is the type of symptom that could be due to statins but it is easy enough to test. Drop the statins for several months and see how you feel. This isn't a life and death issue like some meds - you are not going to fall off a cliff the day you quit your statins. Seems like a perfect situation for a self experiment. If you get better, great - stay off the statins. Doesn't matter why it works, maybe its psychosomatic. But relief is relief. If there is no change, go back on the statins and rest assured that they are not causing your symptoms.
+1
Muscle aches went away in less than 2 weeks.

The subject of Cholesterol has only been in the public eye since the mid 1980's and regular use of statin drugs only became popular after much Pharma advertising in the early to mid 1990's.

Diet and drugs... probably only second to politics in the OpinioNation.

Thank goodness we laid in a 50 year supply of Hadacol. DW has gallons of Lydia Pinkham's liniment in reserve. Learning to be a Prepper.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:23 AM   #54
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... The bottom line is that statins are well known for causing muscle pain. ...
But it is my understanding (and I could have it wrong, that is why I'm posting here), is that if you experience muscle pain from statins, it is generally pretty severe, not of the 'aches/pains' type? I've heard it described as flu-like muscle pain.

Anyone know about this?

I've also considered going off it for 6 months, as an experiment. It's easy to attribute my general energy level and muscle tone to advancing age, but who knows?


-ERD50
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:29 AM   #55
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But it is my understanding (and I could have it wrong, that is why I'm posting here), is that if you experience muscle pain from statins, it is generally pretty severe, not of the 'aches/pains' type? I've heard it described as flu-like muscle pain.
No, it's highly variable.

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The most common statin side effect is muscle pain. You may feel this pain as a soreness, tiredness or weakness in your muscles. The pain can be a mild discomfort, or it can be severe enough to make your daily activities difficult.
Statin side effects: Weigh the benefits and risks - MayoClinic.com
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:37 AM   #56
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But it is my understanding (and I could have it wrong, that is why I'm posting here), is that if you experience muscle pain from statins, it is generally pretty severe, not of the 'aches/pains' type? I've heard it described as flu-like muscle pain.

Anyone know about this?

I've also considered going off it for 6 months, as an experiment. It's easy to attribute my general energy level and muscle tone to advancing age, but who knows?


-ERD50

Well, I just started to take statins a few weeks ago and two nights ago had some muscle pain... last night it was really bad... I am still hurting right now...

So, I am off statins going forward... will talk to my doc to see what other options I have...

But, I do know a guy who has minor pain a lot of the time... and sometimes has a bit more. I do not think he is pain free, but I also do not know if it is all caused by statin....
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:39 AM   #57
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Dietary belief systems is right. It is more dangerous to talk about what is healthy than to discuss politics or religion.

Calorie restriction has shown a lot of promise for health and longevity in rats and, from what I have read, people too. I have also read that you should take a gradual approach to it. Jumping on the calorie restriction bandwagon too quickly can be counterproductive. I have not been able to try this myself because my two beers with dinner would become my two beers for dinner.
Yep; I almost did not post this for fear of starting a fight. But, I thought this might be useful to the OP since calorie restriction (CR) does seem to have a positive impact on most markers. While I am not convinced that CR will add a significant number of years to the end of my life, I am convinced that it gives me the best chance of being healthy and active in those ending years. And, I thought it might be somewhat new and useful to the OP since this does not seem to get nearly as much media attention as some of the other dietary approaches even though it has a fairly large number of animal studies supporting its benefits.

This is definitely something that should be slowly phased in if it is tried at all. Quickly reducing caloric intake has definitely been shown to contribute to a laundry list of issues in adults.

My approach has been to track my calories in minute detail (the way some here track spending) and only reduce intake by 50 calories per week any time my weight stabilizes for about a month. I am still having my two (sometimes three) beers in the evening (for the B vitamins); but, I have all but cut out the cake, cookies, etc. For me, smaller portions were the key to most things; but, I have all but cut out some others like soda, french fries, etc.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:50 AM   #58
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Yep; I almost did not post this for fear of starting a fight. But, I thought this might be useful to the OP since calorie restriction (CR) does seem to have a positive impact on most markers. While I am not convinced that CR will add a significant number of years to the end of my life, I am convinced that it gives me the best chance of being healthy and active in those ending years. And, I thought it might be somewhat new and useful to the OP since this does not seem to get nearly as much media attention as some of the other dietary approaches even though it has a fairly large number of animal studies supporting its benefits.

This is definitely something that should be slowly phased in if it is tried at all. Quickly reducing caloric intake has definitely been shown to contribute to a laundry list of issues in adults.

My approach has been to track my calories in minute detail (the way some here track spending) and only reduce intake by 50 calories per week any time my weight stabilizes for about a month. I am still having my two (sometimes three) beers in the evening (for the B vitamins); but, I have all but cut out the cake, cookies, etc. For me, smaller portions were the key to most things; but, I have all but cut out some others like soda, french fries, etc.

Don't have fear of posting if what you think is part of the discussion...


But, from the little knowledge that I have seen about CR, the people they showed looked horrible... they showed a guy who was 135 lbs and over 6 ft.. they said he did NO exercise since he did not have the strength (very little muscle on him)... IIRC, he ate like 600 to 1000 calories a day.... they were couting out leaves for the salad so it would meet his 'needs'...

Sorry, but that is not for me...
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:30 AM   #59
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Don't have fear of posting if what you think is part of the discussion...


But, from the little knowledge that I have seen about CR, the people they showed looked horrible... they showed a guy who was 135 lbs and over 6 ft.. they said he did NO exercise since he did not have the strength (very little muscle on him)... IIRC, he ate like 600 to 1000 calories a day.... they were couting out leaves for the salad so it would meet his 'needs'...

Sorry, but that is not for me...
I have seen a few hard core CR practitioners that fit that description; but, most that I have actually spoken with do not go to that extreme. For me, I do not doubt the potential health advantages of that road, it just isn't worth the impact on my current happiness.

Based on my own interpretation of the data available, I believe much of the potential benefit of extreme CR can be achieved without becoming emaciated as you describe.

Moderation is the key for me in the area of exercise as well: I no longer attempt 100 mile/day bike rides or runs approaching 10 miles; but, I do try to run or at least walk 2-3 miles/day on most days when I do not take out my bike. I also try to lift weights 2-3 times per week. Some in the CR community do believe that exercise should be minimized/eliminated with extreme CR to maximize its benefits; but, I know how much better I feel now with some exercise. So, this is a risk I am more than willing to accept.

Longevity is an area that I hope to research much more once I finally retire. As for now, these posts are only ramblings from a random guy on the Internet who has likely missed many relevant studies (diet/nutrition, exercise, etc.) in recent years.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:34 AM   #60
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RE - muscle pain/statins:
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Thanks, I guess this is getting me a more interested to try an extended statin 'holiday' and see. Probably best to taper off over a few weeks I guess?

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Well, I just started to take statins a few weeks ago and two nights ago had some muscle pain... last night it was really bad... I am still hurting right now...

So, I am off statins going forward... will talk to my doc to see what other options I have...
I don't recall any changes when I started though. That leads me to believe what I experience is just due to getting older, but who knows? BTW, my semi-annual blood tests for liver function have always been normal/stable.

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