Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-06-2013, 10:57 AM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
RE - muscle pain/statins:
Probably best to taper off over a few weeks I guess?
Whatever you feel comfortable with. I simply stopped cold.

On 40 mg Lipitor:
HDL 54, Trig 129 (Trig/HDL ratio = 2.4 where <3 is acceptable)
Two months later on my own:
HDL 88, Trig 94 (ratio = 1.1, about as good as it gets)

That was coupled with the concurrent change to a LC/HF diet, and my BP and glucose level also improved dramatically.
__________________

__________________
braumeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-06-2013, 06:24 PM   #62
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven View Post
Okay, my cardiologist returned my call and she said "the preventive attributes of statins, including decreasing risk of blockage formation in the heart and brain arteries, is well agreed upon."
She also said the risk of serious side affects are very small and tend to occur at dosages much higher than 10mg.
I would tell that Dr to F off. Treating the well as unwell is unethical. Secondly every time a Dr says "the risks are small" they are either ignorant or lying. My family is in the Pharma biz and the risks are always higher than stated. they just use statistical methods and weasel wording to make it sound like its less. Also, just because the risks are "small" what that really means is there is a 100% chance they will kill or cripple somebody. I want to know how much money they will give me if I have a bad outcome. Also, I want them to pay me if I do not take the drug and then do not have a heart attack. Ask them what hey mean by "small risk" and then ask them how they can rely on group aggregate outcomes to treat and diagnose a individual with such unwarranted confidence. Small doses of statins cause adverse reactions. If you get one or many for you the risk ain't small. The risk of listening to a doctor is potentially fatal.

The reality is NO Dr Anywhere will put any money on who has a heart attack -and when- based on cholesterol numbers. They get paid either way and get paid when their drugs kill or cripple you. They get to play as The House, betting on all those people's lives. The poor patient is carrying 100% of the risk 100% of the time. The risk of death/diminished capacity and quality of life by unnecessary pharmaceutical is real and immediate. The risk a heart attack is theorietical and sometime in the far off future. If I have a heart attack at 80 no Dr will say "He would have lived to 100 if only he'd have been on statins for the past 40 yrs" Ok, some will actually say that but we all know better.
__________________

__________________
razztazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:13 PM   #63
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
timo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rio Rancho
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by braumeister View Post
Whatever you feel comfortable with. I simply stopped cold.

On 40 mg Lipitor:
HDL 54, Trig 129 (Trig/HDL ratio = 2.4 where <3 is acceptable)
Two months later on my own:
HDL 88, Trig 94 (ratio = 1.1, about as good as it gets)

That was coupled with the concurrent change to a LC/HF diet, and my BP and glucose level also improved dramatically.
With an HDL of 88, I'm not sure why you were on a statin anyway. That's where my wife's are, and her father's were also. It might be in your case that the statins lowered all of your numbers, even the good ones. That is the case with me. My HDLs are naturally at 39. In the effort by doctors to raise them, all they ever did was lower them, because statins make all of my numbers go up and down in unison. I finally have convinced them to give up, and just go with the lowest possible combination that keeps HDL at 39 and lowers the LDLs. My diet helps stabilize them also. Besides, I've had two cardiologists and a nurse practitioner tell me that the cholesterol ratio is more important than the actual numbers, and my ratio is good now.
__________________
timo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 09:41 PM   #64
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 430
Everyone is different. I know a lady who is now 94. Her total cholesterol was 300 when she was 80. Her doctor put her on lipitor. She told me the heck with that medicine and never took one pill. She is still healthy and going strong at 94. I for one would never take medicine for cholesterol. Its only a risk factor having higher than normal numbers. Who says what is normal to begin with? My wife takes Zocor and has for over 10 years. Her liver test always show higher than a normal person should show but she still risks taking it. I doubt anyone will ever know if this medicine is good or bad for ones body. What gets me is when you read all the side effects that could come with taking any medicine. One that comes to mind is the one that all these TV commercials show. I think everyone here knows which one I am talking about. What a joke advertising medicine like this and let your young children see it and then ask you about it.
__________________
oldtrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:29 AM   #65
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by timo2 View Post
With an HDL of 88, I'm not sure why you were on a statin anyway.
I guess I wasn't clear.
My HDL had always been around 50, plus or minus about 5, and really didn't change when I started taking statins.

The change came after I went on the LC/HF diet. That raised HDL and lowered triglycerides, proving (to me, anyway) that it was the right thing for me to do.
__________________
braumeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:37 AM   #66
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Naples
Posts: 2,161
Yesterday my doctor called and told me to get off the simvastatin for a week and at my visit next week we would discuss it further. Had a visit scheduled anyway. I'll probably not see any results by then but maybe. I was scheduled for a visit anyway so I'll keep that appointment. I just hopt getting off the simvastatin is the answer to my muscle weakness.
__________________
JOHNNIE36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 08:31 AM   #67
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven View Post
Okay, my cardiologist returned my call and she said "the preventive attributes of statins, including decreasing risk of blockage formation in the heart and brain arteries, is well agreed upon."
She also said the risk of serious side affects are very small and tend to occur at dosages much higher than 10mg.
If you take the statin you reduce the DOCTOR'S risk, which could be the doctor's motivation for prescribing it. How is that? Statins are a standard treatment. As long as the doctor is recommending standard treatments her risk of being sued for malpractice is lower. My own (former) doctor explained this to me when I informed him that I had stopped taking the statin because of the muscle pain and would switch to taking niacin. His actual words were, "So, if you keel over your wife can sue me." My actual words in reply were, "Do you expect me to take a pill to protect you from a lawsuit?" I never went back to him

Doctors are more exposed to lawsuits because their actions are never protected by the "corporate veil." They can be sued and lose all their personal assets for their actions even if they are an employee of a company or hospital. So, doctors live in fear of lawsuits. As a result they practice "defensive medicine" part of which is sticking to standard treatments to reduce their exposure to malpractice suits. Good for them; sometimes not so good for us.
__________________
Khufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 08:41 AM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,638
@ the calory restriction advocates. I am too lazy to dig and find the references but I read something recently about calory restriction that cited some studies and/or hypothesis that changing some macro dietary factors could produce the result that calory restriction achieves. I think it was some variation on low carb with increased mid-chain oils or something - all without starving. The reason I think it may have involved MCT oils is that I react poorly to them so would not have retained the reference . The same source cited some major metabolic differences between humans and the mouse models used in starvation experiments that could indicate that the results would not be as good in us. In any event, being lean is a plus but I can't see hunger and emaciation as positive ER attributes regardless if it got me a couple of extra years on the far end.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 11:55 AM   #69
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
In any event, being lean is a plus but I can't see hunger and emaciation as positive ER attributes regardless if it got me a couple of extra years on the far end.
+1 I think we recently had a thread on "first world problems". To me, the idea of starving oneself to perhaps live a few years longer takes first world obsessiveness to a whole new level.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 01:58 PM   #70
Recycles dryer sheets
NotMyFault's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
+1 I think we recently had a thread on "first world problems". To me, the idea of starving oneself to perhaps live a few years longer takes first world obsessiveness to a whole new level.

Ha
This whole forum is a first world problem. How quickly can I amass enough wealth to live a life of leisure. Only in America baby.
__________________
NotMyFault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 02:45 PM   #71
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotMyFault View Post
This whole forum is a first world problem. How quickly can I amass enough wealth to live a life of leisure. Only in America baby.
True enough. But voluntary starvation seems to take it to a whole new level. And not to appear more attractive; these people look like zombies.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 03:14 PM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
timo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rio Rancho
Posts: 1,438
@braumeister Well congratulations then. Getting your HDLs up to 88 from 50 is quite the feat!
__________________
timo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 03:18 PM   #73
Recycles dryer sheets
Stanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven View Post
Okay, my cardiologist returned my call and she said "the preventive attributes of statins, including decreasing risk of blockage formation in the heart and brain arteries, is well agreed upon."
What bothers me about the above quote are the words "is well agreed upon." I would much rather have seen the words "has been repeatedly proven in studies using objective science to evaluate these risk factors." That would be followed by naming a few sources that a person could go to.

IIRC, ulcers used to be though of as being caused by excess stomach acid, etc. I am sure this was well agreed upon.

Quote:
Robin Warren and Barry Marshall showed the bacterium Helicobacter pylori plays a key role in the development of both stomach and intestinal ulcers.
Thanks to their work these ulcers are often no longer a long-term, frequently disabling problem.
They can now be cured with a short-term course of drugs and antibiotics.
A Greek doctor named Lykoudis (sp?) was treating his own ulcer with antibiotics in 1954. His papers were not well received and he was actually fined for treating his ulcer patients with antibiotics.

One other interesting quote:

Quote:
1994 - Patents for acid reducing drugs expire, removing financial incentive to resist antibiotics as treatment of PUD.
I am not anti-medicine. I think we live better and longer because of it. But, I can see why many lay people are confused and distrustful of some of the advice they are given.

The question in my mind is: "Where's the science?"
__________________
Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 08:39 AM   #74
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
The question in my mind is: "Where's the science?"
My question is, where is the science that shows a concensus of opinion? But unfortunately, I suppose we will never arrive at that.
__________________
Doing things today that others won't, to do things tomorrow that others can't. Of course I'm referring to workouts, not robbing banks.
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 05:55 PM   #75
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
obgyn65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
You can forget about this :-)

[QUOTE="DFW_M5;1281540"]

My question is, where is the science that shows a concensus of opinion?
__________________
Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
obgyn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 11:49 AM   #76
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,982
[QUOTE=obgyn65;1281823]You can forget about this :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post

My question is, where is the science that shows a concensus of opinion?
I know
__________________
Doing things today that others won't, to do things tomorrow that others can't. Of course I'm referring to workouts, not robbing banks.
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 06:55 AM   #77
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 79
Just a couple of comments, wife took statins and her legs hurt so bad she couldn't sleep.

I tried low fat diet, exercising 3 hours per day, 6 times per week for 17 years, and my cholesterol never went down. I am on statins.

Here is my question, every person I know that had bypass's were on statins, so why didn't it prevent blockage? Two of my friends had 2 bypasses each, (20 years apart) still fudged up? They were on statins and fish oil, low fat diet etc.
__________________
lynxville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 06:59 AM   #78
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,591
Nothing conclusive, but a recent study seems to indicate that another negative side effect of statins is that they interfere with uptake of omega-3s (from fish oil).

BMC Medicine | Abstract | Recent findings on the health effects of omega-3 fatty acids and statins, and their interactions: do statins inhibit omega-3?

Also, you might consider trying a high fat (low carb) diet instead of low fat. You might see much better results.
__________________
braumeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 09:31 AM   #79
Full time employment: Posting here.
JakeBrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 548
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynxville View Post
Just a couple of comments, wife took statins and her legs hurt so bad she couldn't sleep.

I tried low fat diet, exercising 3 hours per day, 6 times per week for 17 years, and my cholesterol never went down. I am on statins.

Here is my question, every person I know that had bypass's were on statins, so why didn't it prevent blockage? Two of my friends had 2 bypasses each, (20 years apart) still fudged up? They were on statins and fish oil, low fat diet etc.
I've been on a low dosage of pravastatin for about 20 years. I've had no noticeable side-effects. Last year I had an episode of atrial fibrilation. My cardiologists tell me this is an electrical problem rather than a plumbing problem.

Anyhow, my cardiologists did a very thorough heart work-up and concluded that my arteries are remarkably unclogged for an elderly Americam male. No bypass or stint for me in the foreseeable future!

THe atrial fibrilation was cured for now with a catheter ablation.
__________________
JakeBrake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 05:42 PM   #80
Recycles dryer sheets
Stanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 194
Just to confuse matters more, you may wish to download and read this article from The Actuary magazine (Aug, 2011) which discusses the statistical links between saturated fats, cholesterol and heart disease (the lipid hypothesis.)

August 2011 archive + digital edition | The Actuary, official magazine of SIAS and The Actuarial Profession
__________________

__________________
Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:11 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.