Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-15-2007, 06:32 AM   #21
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Outtahere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,677
I can only add myself to the list of people here that admire Rich, Meadh and Moe and what they do for patients and the families. Thank you for all you do.
__________________

Dogs aren't our whole lives, but they make our lives whole. - Roger Caras
Outtahere is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-15-2007, 07:53 AM   #22
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 244
One things folks could do, especially after ER when there is presumably more time, is be a hospice patient volunteer. Most programs encourage volunteers, after some training, to visit the patients, whether at home or in a facility, to spend some time with them and hopefully brighten their day or just have somebody there. As the medical folks may be able to confirm, too often families do not visit much for a variety of reasons.

I have never been a volunteer, but it is one of the things I have thought about doing after ER, assuming I have the stomach for it. I learned about the volunteer program when we had a relative in hospice.
firewhen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 09:00 AM   #23
Gone but not forgotten
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 11,447
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveR View Post
I knew the outcome of my late wife's medical condition and knew what must be done yet was torn apart by the realization that I would be ending her life with my consent to remove life support. It is a very very uncomfortable place to be...your brain says one thing and your heart another. Unless you have been in the shoes of a person who mush decide on the continuation of life support or the end of life in a spouse or child you cannot imagin what goes through you head and the turmoil and the grief and guilt that comes with it all.







Steve ,
You are so right .It was the most difficult thing I ever had to do .It has given me so much more empathy towards people going through it that I think it really enhanced my nursing care .
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2007, 03:07 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
first, two words: terry shrivo. and then i'll just leave that at that.

isn't it something how what can seem so horrible can also be so beautiful. i would imagine, doc, that experiences like those must make it hard for you to pull the plug on your own career. it seems almost a calling.
__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2007, 05:31 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,322
Rich
Just got back from a week away to bring back my MIL to live with us, and read your stories. That's tough, man, and I'm thankful there are individuals like you and other docs that can deal with these situations, shed a tear if you need to, and go back and do it all over again.
FinallyRetired is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2007, 05:46 PM   #26
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by firewhen View Post
One things folks could do, especially after ER when there is presumably more time, is be a hospice patient volunteer. Most programs encourage volunteers, after some training, to visit the patients, whether at home or in a facility, to spend some time with them and hopefully brighten their day or just have somebody there. As the medical folks may be able to confirm, too often families do not visit much for a variety of reasons.

I have never been a volunteer, but it is one of the things I have thought about doing after ER, assuming I have the stomach for it. I learned about the volunteer program when we had a relative in hospice.
I’m surprised and happy that over the course of a checkerboard career, I’ve been able to do some varied (paid and unpaid) charity work during business hours, including work on the initial stages of setting up The George Mark Children’s House which is a place for terminally ill children and their families to go to relax away from the hospital setting as well as serving as a hospice. (For some reason I couldn’t get the link to work but if you are interested, it is easily googled.)
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2007, 09:11 PM   #27
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,528
I think that it takes a special person to work in the medical field. I could never do that kind of work. I am deeply appreciative that there are people that can do that kind of work and it is so nice to know that they are so caring. Thank you so very much. I hope that you don't have such a tough week again.
Dreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2007, 12:02 PM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
My purpose for posting was to shine a light on the contrast between death when all advanced directives are reconciled versus the additional pain when they are not.
Rich, and others

This is a fascinating article on cardiac arrest and what doctors are able to do in some instances to bring the person back. In some ways this is a counterpoint to the "do not resucitate" question, though it's a difficult and personal decision between a patient and their doctor.
Doctors are reinventing how they treat sudden cardiac arrest, which is fatal 95 percent of the time. A report from the border between life and death.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19751440/site/newsweek/page/0
FinallyRetired is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2007, 03:46 PM   #29
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 21
Constant education of the patient and family is needed to ground them back to realistic prognostic expectations. This is easier to achieve when the illness develops slowly, giving the patient and family enough time to digest the bad news. It is harder to achieve when the disease process is rapidly progressive.

But there is a subset of patients and families who, despite all the information and advance warning you give them, refuse to accept the inevitable. They seek second, third, and fourth opinions from other specialists, looking for someone who will tell them what they want to hear. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; in fact, I am pretty liberal about referring patients to as many specialists as they want to see. Yet, even when the verdict is unanimous, some patients still want a miracle cure. I don't believe this is a function of educational level, as I have seen highly educated families harbor unrealistic expectations, while high school graduates manifest a very good grasp of the dire implications of their diagnoses.
ndfmnlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2008, 11:42 PM   #30
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 10
I also appreciate what the medical profession does, seeing it from both sides - as someone who has a step-daughter in a pathology residency and as a wife who had to make the decision to end her husband's life, the father of my step-daughter. There was some struggle on my step-daughter's part in that she thought if her father had a 1% chance of recovering, he still needed to be left on the ventilater; however, I worked with the wonderful doctor who convinced her that he would never recover and so she agreed to let him go.

Thank you.

Susan
Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 11:31 AM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Constant education of the patient and family is needed to ground them back to realistic prognostic expectations. This is easier to achieve when the illness develops slowly, giving the patient and family enough time to digest the bad news. It is harder to achieve when the disease process is rapidly progressive.

But there is a subset of patients and families who, despite all the information and advance warning you give them, refuse to accept the inevitable.
Coming from this stance, how would you see Ted Kennedy's surgery decision, as described in yesterdays NYTimes? (7/29/2008 )

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/he...se&oref=slogin

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 11:46 AM   #32
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 25,302
Thank you Rich.

I will never forget the nurse who was so kind to us when my mother died. There must be a special place in heaven for people like her.
__________________
When I was a kid I wanted to be older. This is not what I expected.
Walt34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 03:04 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Dawg52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Central MS/Orange Beach, AL
Posts: 9,067
I concur with the rest here. Sounds like you are very caring and have very good bed side manors. I'm sure it's tough to put experiences like these aside when you go home at night.

I wish my brother could have had doctor's like you when he was sick. After he had a cancerous tumor removed, he was talking to the chemo doc about his course of treatment. He casually told the doc that he always thought he would live a normal life span as our parents. The doc replied....."you will never live to be an old man." A pretty cold thing to say as my brother and his surgeons were being positive at that point. Pissed me off as it really gave my brother a negative attitude from that point forward. Of course in the end, the guy was right.
__________________
Retired 3/31/2007@52
Investing style: Full time wuss.
Dawg52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 04:10 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,866
I'm the designated backup plug puller for my Mom and Dad (they're each the primary plug puller for each other). They both have all the living wills and so forth already written up. I have two sisters who live in other states.

Even though my parents and I have different preferences, I will fully respect their wishes when their time comes. While I know what their wishes are in general, I am a little concerned about the possibility of a situation that falls into a gray area and might require a judgment call at a point where they won't be able to tell me what they want.

2Cor521
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 04:27 PM   #35
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
While I know what their wishes are in general, I am a little concerned about the possibility of a situation that falls into a gray area and might require a judgment call at a point where they won't be able to tell me what they want.
I'd guess that's the case (gray zone) about 75% of the time. The challenge is to understand the spirit of their wishes, not just the explicit, concrete instructions.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 04:49 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
I'd guess that's the case (gray zone) about 75% of the time. The challenge is to understand the spirit of their wishes, not just the explicit, concrete instructions.
75%? Oh dear. The spirit of what they want is to not waste a lot of money or hope or time if they're not going to recover. Pull the plug ASAP, basically. And make sure they're not in pain, I'm pretty sure. I think my Dad wants to withhold food and water also, but I'd have to check to make sure. I do know that I have copies of their living will paperwork at home.

2Cor521
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 04:50 PM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
OAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Central, Ohio, USA
Posts: 2,635
Thanks RIT (and others in the medical profession) for sharing. As you probably know I have two RN (one NP) Daughters and one Surgeon SIL - I don't know how they do it either. New life is always joyful - leaving is always tough.
__________________
Vietnam Veteran, CW4 USA, Retired 1979
OAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #38
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
75%? Oh dear. The spirit of what they want is to not waste a lot of money or hope or time if they're not going to recover.
Therein lies the rub. While no physician would ethically force treatment in a situation of utter futility, we are very, very bad at knowing who will be the 1 in 10 or one in 1000 who will make a meaningful recovery. Add to that the unknown quality of life after such a near-death expeirence, and you get real humble real fast.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2008, 07:41 PM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
bbbamI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Collin County, TX
Posts: 9,294
My thanks as well to anyone in the medical profession. You give comfort not only to the patient, but also to the ones left behind.
__________________
There's no need to complicate, our time is short..
bbbamI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2008, 05:52 AM   #40
Recycles dryer sheets
Puzzley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 169
Rich, my hat's off to you for sharing this experience. The situations this thread has generated are difficult life events. My mother is almost 98, in a nursing home, and has been demented for many years. She, along with my two sisters and I, many years ago did all the necessary paperwork to insure that she was DNR. This was her wish when she was still lucid, and we follow it. It's the best thing for her....
__________________
Carpe Diem, Vita Brevis
Puzzley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:37 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.