Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-03-2011, 04:50 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
the BBS people don't like running for most people. They think that it damages the joints over the long run.
Making it an absolute non-starter for me. My morning run is the best part of my day.
__________________

__________________
Pas de lieu Rhône que nous.
braumeister is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-03-2011, 05:27 PM   #42
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,399
I have found that what works best for me is one set of about 8-12 reps. Basically when 12 reps becomes easy I move up (I usually use machines but some free weights) and then start at 8 reps and do the cycle over again.

I aim to go 3 days a week (well I took off some time after my trainer left the gym so need to get back into it) but feel fine if I do 2 days of weight training (research is that 3 days is barely more effective than 2).

Then I do cardio in between.
__________________

__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 09:09 AM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
Thanks, HFWR. Here's what the Primal Blueprint for Fitness (PBF) ebook (from that link) says:
How does PBF compare to Body by Science/
Super slow stuff?

I’m a big fan of Doug McGuff’s work. It gets cited
frequently as a sort of refutation of the Primal,
evolutionary-based fitness models, but I don’t see
it that way. What I see is two different protocols re-
lying on very similar physical truths: lift hard and lift
intensely just enough to get strong and fit. That’s it.
Body by Science tends to recommend slower lifts
to failure using complex weight machines; I prefer
more powerful movements, sometimes to fail-
ure, using bodyweight. The tie that binds the two,
though, is intensity of effort and a de-emphasis
on volume. BBS recommends once a week, while
PBF recommends twice a week of Heavy Lifting.
Efficiency of effort is the name of the game.
Where BBS and PBF diverge, I think, is on the defi-
nition of strength itself. What is strength? Is it mus-
cular hypertrophy? BBS is based on maximizing
structural adaptation of the musculature in the
shortest, safest way possible. I’m about maximiz-
ing function—and not just of the muscles, but of the
body as a whole. Training on expensive machines
will get you strong; there’s no question. But I be-
lieve that you can develop agility, speed, and coor-
dination better with real-life movements in the PBF
program—and have more fun while you’re at it!
Here's the summarizing graphic from the PBF ebook.

__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2011, 09:22 AM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,649
I like the PBF triangle Al. I am inclined to adopt it with a minor modification:
1 set of sprints on a stationary bike once a week
1 set of reps using BBS's machine workout (the easy route) once a week
3-4 long bike rides the rest of the week.

I may see if the primal book is at the library to see what their science says. I like the idea of mixing the easy cardio in on a regular basis.

Edit: not at the library yet but the author has a blog called Mark's Daily Apple that I added to my RSS reader.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Week 2
Old 03-08-2011, 09:10 AM   #45
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,649
Week 2

OMG! At the end of the final rep (leg press) I almost passed out. Your mind tells you that once you have done a thing the next time will be easier but "to failure" guarantees it to always be as hard as the last time. The book tells you that at the final, futile push of each rep your body will panic and so it does. You feel almost compelled to stop and have to force yourself to take it to failure. Thank goodness this is 15 minutes once a week.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 12:49 PM   #46
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: anywhere usa
Posts: 246
You may be holding your breath as you approach failure. Doing so can make you light headed or even pass out. It also causes a spike on blood pressure that most doctors suggest avoiding.

Your message does touch on one of the problems I had with HIT.

Each workout will actually be harder, not just as hard. With experience and the proper mindset, momentary failure becomes progressively more intense. Two things to try that will get you further:

1. Association - Embrace the pain, treating it as the goal of the exercise. The more painful, the better. This confuses the pleasure / pain barrier.

2. Dissociation - Mentally check out during the set, disregarding any pain. Try to reset how you feel during each successive rep as "normal". The feeling from your muscles is just another sensation, no different than any other. Focusing on your breathing instead can help, and avoids the tendancy to hold your breath.

There's a story that Arthur Jones, the founder of Nautilus, pulled a gun on someone who insisted they'd reached momentary failure during a set. Turns out with the proper motivation, they could do a few more reps.
__________________
pimpmyretirement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 01:31 PM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by pimpmyretirement View Post
You may be holding your breath as you approach failure. Doing so can make you light headed or even pass out. It also causes a spike on blood pressure that most doctors suggest avoiding.

Your message does touch on one of the problems I had with HIT.

Each workout will actually be harder, not just as hard. With experience and the proper mindset, momentary failure becomes progressively more intense. Two things to try that will get you further:

1. Association - Embrace the pain, treating it as the goal of the exercise. The more painful, the better. This confuses the pleasure / pain barrier.

2. Dissociation - Mentally check out during the set, disregarding any pain. Try to reset how you feel during each successive rep as "normal". The feeling from your muscles is just another sensation, no different than any other. Focusing on your breathing instead can help, and avoids the tendancy to hold your breath.

There's a story that Arthur Jones, the founder of Nautilus, pulled a gun on someone who insisted they'd reached momentary failure during a set. Turns out with the proper motivation, they could do a few more reps.
As I was heading home I started thinking about breath holding - that is a real possibilty. I think I intuitively applied your association suggestion.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 06:30 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Regarding HIT and slow reps to failure: When I did this (some time ago, ahem) it was on some nice high-end machines in the gym. They were very smooth (good bearings=little "stickiness" in the motion) and the cams assured the mechanical advantage was properly distributed over the natural range of motion of the joint. I'm wondering if a typical home machine (cables, no cams, maybe more friction) is going to be as effective for these exercises that rely on very slow reps. Seems (without the cams) you might repeatedly get to failure at the spot in each lift where mechanical advantage is worst, and that (without super smooth bearings) the slow lifts might be tougher to execute.
Will a "regular" home gym work?
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 06:44 PM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Regarding HIT and slow reps to failure: When I did this (some time ago, ahem) it was on some nice high-end machines in the gym. They were very smooth (good bearings=little "stickiness" in the motion) and the cams assured the mechanical advantage was properly distributed over the natural range of motion of the joint. I'm wondering if a typical home machine (cables, no cams, maybe more friction) is going to be as effective for these exercises that rely on very slow reps. Seems (without the cams) you might repeatedly get to failure at the spot in each lift where mechanical advantage is worst, and that (without super smooth bearings) the slow lifts might be tougher to execute.
Will a "regular" home gym work?
I suspect you are right. Also, as you increase strength you can get struck at sticking points like you describe. the book outlines several techniques (like partial motion reps) to get past the sticking point. Also, when I got to failure a little too quickly, I dropped down one level on the wieght and continued to failure at the lower weight. I am using high end machines.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 10:05 PM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
According to McGuff, the data show that HIT resistance training is more effective once a week and provides the cardio you need for health and fitness. It seems hard to believe for me and I certainly will not stop riding. But if the science bears out, a brief, intense HIT regimen coupled with my bike riding (tossed in for fun and just in case) should be just the ticket.
Right. Even scientists who advocate HIIT do not claim it fully replaces endurance training in providing maximal cardiopulmonary adaptations/benefits. HIIT 1-2x/wk is about right. Doing more chronically risks injury. And repeated low-rep/high resistance (weight) work REALLY increases risk of muscle/joint problems.
__________________
ERhoosier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 05:31 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
OMG! At the end of the final rep (leg press) I almost passed out. Your mind tells you that once you have done a thing the next time will be easier but "to failure" guarantees it to always be as hard as the last time. The book tells you that at the final, futile push of each rep your body will panic and so it does. You feel almost compelled to stop and have to force yourself to take it to failure. Thank goodness this is 15 minutes once a week.
This was my experience last Saturday. For example, I knew I'd be able to do about seven chinups in the super-slow mode. By four I really wanted to stop. It was torture. Today I did my normal 15, and it was hard but not unpleasant.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 05:52 PM   #52
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,936
I am in awe of you guys!

Just got back from the gym. Luckily I am happy doing what I do, which is normal intensity 2 sets of 10 on each machine and increasing weight gradually and reasonably as I get stronger. This gives me the results I want, and even though it does take some time it is worth it to me. Plus, it is important to me to avoid injuries at all costs. Not to say that the HIT causes injuries, but I guess it could.

The HIT workouts sound really, really tough. Go for it! I'll be the little old lady over at the side, lifting when you get to the gym, and still lifting when you leave.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 07:15 PM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,037
That super slow mode amazes me . A few weeks ago our instructor had us doing it in our water aerobics class . She explained how then you did not have the momentum from the previous move to help you . It was one intense workout . I was sore for days .
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2011, 07:19 PM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
An interesting thing to me is that almost all football teams use normal lifting cadences, even though super slow and HIT have been very heavily promoted for years, first by Arthur Jones and his employee Elliot Darden of Nautilus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
This was my experience last Saturday. For example, I knew I'd be able to do about seven chinups in the super-slow mode. By four I really wanted to stop. It was torture. Today I did my normal 15, and it was hard but not unpleasant.
15 pullups is an accomplishment, congrats.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 06:31 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
An interesting thing to me is that almost all football teams use normal lifting cadences, even though super slow and HIT have been very heavily promoted for years, first by Arthur Jones and his employee Elliot Darden of Nautilus.
Yeah, and I can't imagine a Seal team doing a 15 minute workout once a week and relaxing in the barracks the rest of the week. Although the book does point out there is a huge difference between basic fitness training and skill training -- for the later, the more the better. It certainly seems that endurance athletes (or military) need extensive endurance training. And I agree with Al that endurance exercises have to be good for us.

On the football teams, though, even though they use normal cadences do they repeat to failure? If so, that is the main point of HIT.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Changes As I Get Older
Old 03-10-2011, 10:46 AM   #56
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 2,695
Changes As I Get Older

One observation I have for myself and those I notice aging with me, as I get older the training becomes more muscle specific. By this I mean, when I was younger I had a good 'general' physical condition and could switch between running, cycling, swimming and not feel much difference. Now switching to any new practice seems to find a lot of unhappiness in new muscles be taxed. If I had just kept running I wouldn't have noticed any change. Not sure if this means I need a diversity of training as I get older.
IMHO the aerobic training is for the cardiovascular system more than muscle groups or improved performance in activities. Regardless of other training some aerobic activity is warranted.
__________________
T.S. Eliot:
Old men ought to be explorers
yakers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 10:57 AM   #57
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakers View Post
One observation I have for myself and those I notice aging with me, as I get older the training becomes more muscle specific.
I think you are right. Also, I think it takes a little longer than it once did to improve muscle capability up to what I generally consider acceptable levels, when working on specific muscles with weight machines. On the other hand, I have more time and patience now.

I like doing one kind of cardio, but usually I do two so that I don't get bored. I don't know how long this will last, though.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 03:26 PM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Yeah, and I can't imagine a Seal team doing a 15 minute workout once a week and relaxing in the barracks the rest of the week. Although the book does point out there is a huge difference between basic fitness training and skill training -- for the later, the more the better. It certainly seems that endurance athletes (or military) need extensive endurance training. And I agree with Al that endurance exercises have to be good for us.

On the football teams, though, even though they use normal cadences do they repeat to failure? If so, that is the main point of HIT.
I don't think lifting heavy weights is "new", per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
I think you are right. Also, I think it takes a little longer than it once did to improve muscle capability up to what I generally consider acceptable levels, when working on specific muscles with weight machines. On the other hand, I have more time and patience now.

I like doing one kind of cardio, but usually I do two so that I don't get bored. I don't know how long this will last, though.
Though I still do machines, mostly for convenience and my own safety, but compound movements such as squats, presses, and deadlifts seem to provide a better overall balance than muscle-specific exercises. Do a series of bench presses, overhead presses, etc., and see if your biceps and triceps, for example, haven't gotten a good workout also.
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 04:23 PM   #59
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
Though I still do machines, mostly for convenience and my own safety, but compound movements such as squats, presses, and deadlifts seem to provide a better overall balance than muscle-specific exercises. Do a series of bench presses, overhead presses, etc., and see if your biceps and triceps, for example, haven't gotten a good workout also.
(emphasis mine). Me too. Every time I get injured it takes forever to heal and work back up to where I was. So, I feel more confident working out on machines and will probably continue with them always despite their disadvantages. I do intend to go back to doing some free weights in addition to the machines soon, though, but starting very light. Better light and right than strong and wrong, and all that.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:53 PM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,982
I had no idea there were so many weight lifters on this site. What I have learned over the past several years is to find what works for you and stick with it until it doesn't. As for me, I have done best lifting 3X/week and I mostly stick to compound lifts and have switched off between strength (5x5 heavy weights) and hyperthrophy (3X8-12). I came down with diabetes a few years ago, and getting into the gym has been a live saver, plus I found it was something I enjoy immensely. Wish I had discovered this years ago.
__________________

__________________
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Younger Next Year After Six Months TromboneAl Health and Early Retirement 74 09-03-2011 09:49 PM
It really is rocket science... IndependentlyPoor Other topics 10 09-17-2009 03:30 PM
Younger Next Year Type Book for 20 Year Old? TromboneAl Other topics 10 01-08-2009 09:39 AM
Help! I'm trapped inside a 53 year old body! tangomonster Health and Early Retirement 51 12-05-2007 10:47 AM
UFO science Khan Other topics 9 03-04-2007 12:45 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:10 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.