Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-17-2011, 11:52 AM   #121
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Doing some more overthinking on this issue: If you need to have a week between sessions because healing is necessary, what about stretching? If the healing consists of repair of micro-injuries to muscle fibers, you could argue that stretching could be the worst thing to do between sessions.
Al, I think you might be right about the overthinking. People who lift have also done stretching since time began as far as I know. I lift three days a week and stretch each time, and I can comfortably lift at least twice what I could earlier this year on all machines. That's a fast enough increase in capability to suit me, given that I don't even have the testosterone advantage.

I have no excessive pain, feel healthy and capable, and have been making steady, consistent progress without any injuries with regular stretching on the stretching station. When I didn't stretch regularly or at all, injuries impaired my progress. Overall I love the results I'm getting.

But I suppose that if you don't mind injuries, then you could just do an inadequate job of stretching or skip stretching. Just kidding.
__________________

__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-17-2011, 11:53 AM   #122
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,196
And another thing, these back exercises that I'm doing to strengthen my core, like this one:



take such little effort, that according to the research we've been discussing, they shouldn't help much. Perhaps the rules are different for these postural, slow-twitch muscles?
__________________

__________________
Al
TromboneAl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 11:58 AM   #123
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
I don't know, Al. Guess what you can do depends on your present condition and injuries.

I use the back extension machine at the gym more or less like the one below, set at 120-130 pounds currently. That seems to strengthen my lower back nicely (you just push backwards slowly for each rep). But then I haven't had a back injury since I resumed stretching last January.

It takes me a while to recover after injuries and that requires backing off a bit. After I first injured my back in early January my back, sciatic, and so on hurt so much! I didn't use this machine for a week and then gingerly re-started at 30 pounds. I have been cautiously working up to higher weights since then, and I think my back has been fully healed for several months by now

P.S. - - if I can't be Eva, I'll settle for looking like the blonde in the photo below, too! Oh well. Old, gray, and dumpy, that's me in real life.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 040202.jpg (418.2 KB, 4 views)
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 12:51 PM   #124
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
The thing that BBS and the above have in common is the idea that maximum effort is the most important thing. BBS says that you should lift very slowly, and go to failure, whereas the other says is that the only important thing is that your last rep be very difficult.
Going to failure is an interesting thing. Our strongest athletes like NFL players and Olympic lifters and power lifters mostly do not train to failure. And for me anyway, failure is kind of subjective, depending at least to some extent on one's pain tolerance.

I decided to try this "to failure" program, mostly because I have pulled every kind of muscle along my thoracic spine with my kettlebell HIIT intervals.

I can do the upper body stuff at home, by skipping the chest press and only doing dumbell overhead presses, curls, rows and pullups. But I have no safe way to do squats or deadlifts to failure at home, so I went to the gym. It's been a long time since I used the hip sled, so I didn't know where to start weightwise. I just used what was already loaded on the machine, 140#. (This is not like doing 140# squats, because the load gets pushed up an angled ramp.) Anyway, I did 40 of these, fairly slow. My legs were shaking and starting to cramp, but no failure. So I added another 50 #, and did 40 more- more cramping, more shaking, but still no failure.

Then I went to another plate loaded machine which created a different work pattern- more on my glutes and hams than on the quads. (Quads are what the sled seems to hit hardest.)

I did the same thing here. Next time I will up the starting weight by 50# on each exercise and see if I become unable to finish a rep before I cramp up.

One thing I like about this type of workout, just getting started, is that I don't have to walk around with a clip board keeping track of weights, reps, and sets. Just put on a good bit of weight, and move it until I can't anymore. Last thing I need is another thing to keep books on.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:17 PM   #125
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
One thing I like about this type of workout, just getting started, is that I don't have to walk around with a clip board keeping track of weights, reps, and sets. Just put on a good bit of weight, and move it until I can't anymore. Last thing I need is another thing to keep books on.
Each to his own, and I can understand why you feel that way (though I don't, really). I usually remember what I lifted for an hour or two, until I can get to a computer and record it on another message board in a thread devoted to logging exercise. Then I can look back several months on that thread and see what I was lifting earlier in the year. Seeing the improvement is an extra motivator for me.

Also, I record my feelings (like "this workout was tough for me and I will probably not be increasing weights for at least a month"). Then, when I am ready to increase weights in a week or two I can laugh at myself a little.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:37 PM   #126
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,196
I don't want to be a typical Internet Chicken Little, but that back extension machine looks dangerous to me. I've read somewhere (Backsmart Fitness Plan?), that no back exercises should be performed with added weight. I'll see if I can find that.

Here's a quote from:

Top 5 Worst Weight Machines - Ask Personal Trainers workout videos
Using the lower back extension machine is the equivalent of lifting a heavy object with your lower back only and not bending your legs.
When you lift a heavy object at home such as a TV the correct way to lift would help functionally strengthen your lower back such as performing a dead lift with proper form.


The motion provided by the lower back extension machine is totally unnatural and could lead to injury.

In the same vein, I've give up crunches that I've done for three years:


Stop Doing Sit-Ups: Why Crunches Don't Work - Newsweek

"Like the pushup, the best exercises for back health and a firmer stomach are ones that work your abs while holding your spine straight, like planks or leg drops "
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:45 PM   #127
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Top 5 Worst Weight Machines - Ask Personal Trainers workout videos
Using the lower back extension machine is the equivalent of lifting a heavy object with your lower back only and not bending your legs.
When you lift a heavy object at home such as a TV the correct way to lift would help functionally strengthen your lower back such as performing a dead lift with proper form.


The motion provided by the lower back extension machine is totally unnatural and could lead to injury.
While deadlifts with a well trained and strong spotter might (or might not) be better, if you do a correct back extension on a machine like W2 shows, the back is completely static. In effect, one's hips are the pivot point, and the power to push back is coming from glutes and other hip extensors with the back held rigidly in place. So postural muscles along the spine are contracting.

Hard to imagine much injury potential in that, espcially if your core is activated.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:59 PM   #128
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
I had a trainer show me how to use the back extension machine, and I am very careful about form on it now. You are pushing backwards, not pulling/lifting backwards, so could that make a difference?

Once a long time ago a female stranger started talking to me while I was working out on it, and said she had lost her bluetooth earpiece there and had I seen it? Like an idiot I twisted around to look under the machine while I was in the middle of a rep , and naturally that messed up my back. So, since then I am always pretty careful to focus on form. It only makes sense, when lifting that much weight with the back, which is so prone to injury in humans. As the free weight lifters used to say years ago, "Better light and right, than strong and wrong".

The results that I get from that machine are great, though. I feel so much stronger and more capable with a strong lower back, and I don't tire as easily. I don't seem to throw out my back on it at all if I stretch before and after, focus on what I am doing, and pay attention to what my body is telling me.

Bear in mind that I am one of those lucky few who seldom if ever throws out her back, and never did even once before my mid 30's.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:02 PM   #129
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,196
Yes, I'm probably overly cautious at this point.

BTW, the Backsmart Fitness Plan recommends a daily dozen stretching and strengthening exercises, with, at the advanced level, "6-8 sets for 10 repetitions, holding the stretch for 10 seconds to a minute." IOW, a max of 8 * 10 * 1 * 12 = 960 minutes of exercise or 16 hours per day."
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:12 PM   #130
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Yes, I'm probably overly cautious at this point.
That's wise, you know, considering that you are presently fighting back from considerable injury in that bike accident.

16 hours a day? Obviously that program is just not meant for me! I do 2 sets of 10 reps on each of 19 machines, which takes about 40 minutes and that is all I am good for right now. Instead of increasing the sets or reps, I just wait until I feel like I can easily increase the weight and do that instead. Why? Not on any authority, really, but simply because this feels right to me and is giving me the kind of results that I want.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 05:23 PM   #131
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
That's wise, you know, considering that you are presently fighting back from considerable injury in that bike accident.

16 hours a day? Obviously that program is just not meant for me! I do 2 sets of 10 reps on each of 19 machines, which takes about 40 minutes and that is all I am good for right now. Instead of increasing the sets or reps, I just wait until I feel like I can easily increase the weight and do that instead. Why? Not on any authority, really, but simply because this feels right to me and is giving me the kind of results that I want.
You must be setting a land speed record getting around that gym. If you spend 90 secs getting from one machine to the next, cleaning off the cooties before and after, and setting your weight, and 30 secs between sets on each machine, you appear to have roughly 3.5 minutes left to actually raise and lower the weights, 380 times.

Way to go!

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 05:32 PM   #132
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
Thanks! I have to admit that F. says it takes me 45 minutes. But I think it's 40 minutes. This is when I don't have to wait for any machine, and usually I don't have to wait. Getting from one machine to another and adjusting the machine probably doesn't take me more than 20 seconds.*

Anyway, that leaves me about 100 seconds to do set one, rest, and set two, all three of which take about the same time. So, 33 seconds for 10 reps would be about 3 seconds per rep. Doesn't sound like much except when you are slowly counting out "one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi, three-Mississippi" and all of that is just for one rep. My reps are actually slower than what I see most other people doing, because I think I get more out of lifting with slower reps.

I don't like to rest between machines, or talk, because I like to work up a sweat and keep my muscles from getting cold if I can. I would probably catch cold standing around drenched in the air conditioning otherwise. If the next machine is busy, then I usually walk around nearby rather than just stand there, to keep my blood moving.

When I finish my workout, stick a fork in me because I am DONE. I am tired but feel great. I used to spend some time on the Concept 2 or elliptical, but now choose to do my cardio at home because F. always finishes at the gym before me and is sitting there waiting.

Just got back from the gym, and was thinking about this thread. It is hard to drag oneself to the gym but much easier now that F. is my gym buddy. And once we get there, I have a blast. Recess for grownups. I did my full workout today and feel strong and happy.

*I gave up cleaning off the cooties because nobody seems to do that any more after Katrina; before Katrina we were all more fastidious, I suppose. Besides, they don't supply the small towels for that any more and a big bath towel seems kind of like overkill.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 06:20 AM   #133
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,634
Ha, next time you get on that sled load it up. You are supposed to reach failure in a dozen reps, not forty.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 11:28 AM   #134
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Ha, next time you get on that sled load it up. You are supposed to reach failure in a dozen reps, not forty.
Thanks for the suggestion. I was flying blind, as I don't yet have the book from the library, and 5 years and one traumatic hip injury have elapsed since my last hip sled use. Also, they all seem to have different geometry, so it was hard for me to guess where to start, and I didn't want to start too heavy because I am unused to the failure endpoint. While these sleds all seem to have fail-safe hard stops on them, some some might be a bit hard to crawl out of (and embarrassing!) if you lose them.

My legs always have been relatively much stronger than my upper body. At my old gym, one sled always had 4 100# plates on it. (These were really fun to take on and off if they were not already in place) You just added however many 45s and 25s you wanted to get the right weight

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:06 PM   #135
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
This thread has been inactive for a while, but I like it and want to discuss this high intensity idea bit more.

I found a gym where I do can do deadlifts on a michine, as well as squats. This gym also has Keiser stations, which use an air piston to give resistence rather than plates or a weight stack, so no matter how hard you hit it there is no momentum effect.

So I made a workout to start- 4 sets of 25 reps moderate weight. I had my 3rd wo there on last Wednesday afternoon. I ate just a snack and went out to a concert that evening. When I got home I was hungry so I ate some spinach and egg and went to bed. About 3 hours later I woke up and puked. I took me an hour to change my sheets and clean up the floor (and my Kindle!). So yesterday I worked out again, using drop sets that started out pretty heavy, and just kept stepping down in weight, up in reps until the weight was too light to be doing much. I felt moderately shot afterward, but not half dead.

Afterward, I ate with a friend, and ate really lightly. But I think a hard workout pretty much stops my gut in its tracks, as I woke up again during the night afraid that I would barf. I didn't, but this morning it took me about 3 hours to manage to eat some breakfast.

I feel tired after my workouts, but not destroyed, so I don't quite get the gut shutdown.

I think I just need to keep on, but try to figure out a way to eat alongside these intense workouts. I seem to have lost about 3 pounds, and weight loss is not one of my goals

Do your intense workouts leave you nauseated, or unable to eat? Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #136
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,824
(As you know, I don't do the intense workouts so I can't really say much about that).

Working out can decrease one's appetite, so it seems logical that an intense workout could have an effect like that. I am surprised that it occurs so long after you worked out.

But sleeping with your Kindle? I *love* my Kindle, but I would be afraid of breaking it if I slept with it.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:44 PM   #137
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,634
I don't have any problem with nausea but I still get dizzy.

Edit: Your problem drove me to Google where I failed to learn anything about what happened to you (all the references were to immediate nausea, not delayed) but may have found something that explains what happens to me (bolded):

2 down vote
I had a particularly effective HIT weight training workout today, and after two sets I was so gassed and queasy that I had to lay down on the bench for a few minutes to let everything settle down. I hadn't just eaten or drank, and while my heart was racing I don't think it was that high and my breathing was still under control (although certainly I was short of breath). I recalled a section addressing this from the Body By Science Question and Answer Book (p. 237-240), and from that I'd like to add one more potential cause to @Ivo's list.
The nausea that one feels is a result of burning so much glycogen out of the muscles that the body attempts to continue muscular contraction by manufacturing more glucose out of the lactic acid that has been building up within the muscle.
<Long chemical process explanation>
The upshot of this complicated biochemical process is that when a trainee runs out of glycogen in his working muscles and his body liberates lactate into his bloodstream, his pH levels drop off markedly, producing a strong lactic acidosis and feelings of nausea.
This effect causes a drop in blood pressure (often perceived as light-headedness), and the inadequate blood flow to the abdomen produces the feeling of nausea.
A couple ways to combat this feeling:
  • Increase rest time between sets to allow the body to keep up with the demands that are being placed on it
  • Consume a bit of sugar immediately upon feeling the symptoms (or beforehand if you are certain that this will be a problem).
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 02:56 PM   #138
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
I don't have any problem with nausea but I still get dizzy.
  • Increase rest time between sets to allow the body to keep up with the demands that are being placed on it
  • Consume a bit of sugar immediately upon feeling the symptoms (or beforehand if you are certain that this will be a problem).
I have noticed that if I eat a prune shortly after the workout, it has a good overall effect on my gut. Dizziness is not part of my symptoms, just nausea.

@W2- the Kindle was on my night table.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 04:05 PM   #139
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,980
Ha, If your doing squats and deads at 4X25 that sounds awfully intense to me. Lots of guys will puke on leg day not doing nearly that many sets/reps. I usually take a shaker bottle of water with G2 powder mixed in, and that helps a lot in getting through vigorous exercises, but my leg days are usually Saturday morning, and by 2:00 PM I feel wiped out and in need of a nap.
__________________
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2011, 05:32 PM   #140
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,196
Ha, I definitely get shaky, but not nauseous. It sounds like you threw up about 12 hours after your workout -- I would guess that it was totally unrelated.

-----------------

Today I had my third high-intensity workout on the bowflex, and I felt really good afterward. I even enjoyed the exercises themselves. I did the big five, and one or two others, and then did my back strengthening exercises and stretched. I've noticed before that I feel good after intense exercise, and that was especially true today. Also, with all the stretching in the last month, I feel like my joints are more "lubricated."

------------------

Thinking more about BBS, here are the things that the book says:

1. You shouldn't (or at least need not) do strength training more than about once per week.

2. You should lift to failure.

3. You should lift very slowly.

I'm quite convinced about 1, and pretty convinced about 2 and 3.

Now that I'm recovered, I have to decide on BBS vs. YNY, and here's my current compromise:

Lift on Fridays
Take Saturdays and Sundays off
Walk on Mondays
Ride on Tuesdays
Walk, ride, or maybe run on Wednesdays and Thursdays

If I lean further towards BBS, I'll take three days off after lifting.
__________________

__________________
Al
TromboneAl is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Younger Next Year After Six Months TromboneAl Health and Early Retirement 74 09-03-2011 09:49 PM
It really is rocket science... IndependentlyPoor Other topics 10 09-17-2009 03:30 PM
Younger Next Year Type Book for 20 Year Old? TromboneAl Other topics 10 01-08-2009 09:39 AM
Help! I'm trapped inside a 53 year old body! tangomonster Health and Early Retirement 51 12-05-2007 10:47 AM
UFO science Khan Other topics 9 03-04-2007 12:45 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:22 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.