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Old 07-04-2011, 06:57 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post

Now that I'm recovered, I have to decide on BBS vs. YNY, and here's my current compromise:

Lift on Fridays
Take Saturdays and Sundays off
Walk on Mondays
Ride on Tuesdays
Walk, ride, or maybe run on Wednesdays and Thursdays

If I lean further towards BBS, I'll take three days off after lifting.
Hmmm, maybe I should switch to Fridays since I frequently take off on weekends. I have currently been doing weights on Tuesdays (when DW goes into the gym for a couple of classes and can't ride with me). If Wednesday's weather is good I have been riding but I don't go all out - just moderate riding for 20 miles or so. I don't think that kind of slow endurance stuff stresses the muscles much but who knows...
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:06 PM   #142
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I don't think that kind of slow endurance stuff stresses the muscles much but who knows...
Yeah, that's the big question. I picture the muscle damage as a bunch of little micro-tears and chewed-up fibers. Maybe of any kind of movement of the limb would be disrupting the repair/healing process. Perhaps repair is not possible if your legs are pumping. Perhaps even stretching has the muscle repair persons saying "Geez, look at that. We just about had this fiber finished, and now the schmuck stretched it all to hell!"



That's why I'm thinking that the rest of the workout day is spent on the couch, and the next two days are pretty sedentary.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:09 PM   #143
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Great graphic aide
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:48 PM   #144
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Thanks for all your comments. Whatever caused it, puking is no fun so I am going to make some modifications.

I am not sold on the one day a week idea, I think I should do something for a good while most days. I might have to work up to this greater effort though.

To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them. There is 100 years of history at least of entrepreneurial fitness systems creators and authors, and nothing sells better than promises of more results with less effort. Remember Arthur Jones and Nautilus? Or isometrics of the 60s? Or Dynamic Tension of the fifties? Look around a gym today, a piece of Nautilus equipment is hard to find.

Good to remember that for an entrepreneur only one result really counts- sales. No one is going to arrest him if his system doesn't really work, any more than the personal finance gurus will get arrested if their stuff turns out to be bunk.

It is generally true that very strong people like power lifters and Olympic lifters do not lift to failure. And these people have their strength tested in competition regularly. And like I said, failure is relative. If someone were offering $100 for one more rep, might you not be able to gut it out?

Here is a short video that shows some OSU Buckeyes going hard in the gym.



And here is Columbus OH gym famous for training powerlifting champions




I am not trying to convert anyone, just to mention some perhaps different viewpoints.


Ha
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:23 PM   #145
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To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them.
I think we must be talking about different things, because I see these studies as dead easy to do, and they have been done. Two examples, from the article:

Less is Not Less
In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

--------------

In 2007, DiFrancisco-Donoghue et al tested 18 older adults in two groups for several weeks. Half of them trained twice per week, the other half once. Once again, they found no difference at all.


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Old 07-05-2011, 10:55 PM   #146
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In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.
Suppose they did --- who cares? I'm in that age range (69), but I'd like to live a long and healthy life. Why should I care whether I get stronger? I'm not training to be a stevedore.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:07 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
I think we must be talking about different things, because I see these studies as dead easy to do, and they have been done. Two examples, from the article:

Less is Not Less
In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

--------------

In 2007, DiFrancisco-Donoghue et al tested 18 older adults in two groups for several weeks. Half of them trained twice per week, the other half once. Once again, they found no difference at all.


I think what I refer to, in part, is that strength increases are not the only goal of fitness training. There are metabolic effects such as gluconse tolerance, muscular hypertrophy, endurance, aerobic conditioning, etc. etc. I maintain that this stuff is in fact fairly complex, and that the simplifications chosen for a given study at times may not be helpful to ones real world goals. I already know (or believe anyway) by the best possible evidence- long experience of people who depend on their muscles for contest or money, that considerable volume and workload have always been preferred.

Anyway, I may be dead wrong.

Ha
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:15 AM   #148
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Thanks for all your comments. Whatever caused it, puking is no fun so I am going to make some modifications.

I am not sold on the one day a week idea, I think I should do something for a good while most days. I might have to work up to this greater effort though.
Lots of people work out more than one day a week and do just fine. I do. Restricting my workouts to just one day a week would seem too much like going on a chocolate cake diet, to me. YMMV

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Originally Posted by haha
To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them. There is 100 years of history at least of entrepreneurial fitness systems creators and authors, and nothing sells better than promises of more results with less effort. Remember Arthur Jones and Nautilus? Or isometrics of the 60s? Or Dynamic Tension of the fifties? Look around a gym today, a piece of Nautilus equipment is hard to find.
Probably depends on the gym. About a third of the machines I use at my gym are Nautilus machines. From what I can tell, the Nautilus machines are more expensive than other machines so I am speculating that maybe that is why most gyms (including mine) don't have many. Being a penny-pincher I decided I might as well use them, since my gym has already paid for them. I like some of them better, and some not. I agree that they probably aren't worth the extra money.*

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Good to remember that for an entrepreneur only one result really counts- sales.
That is what it all comes down to. There's a lot of money to be had in the fitness business.

*(Except the Nautilus abdominal machine, which is unbelieveable and worth its weight in GOLD.)
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:48 AM   #149
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Corrections:

I had left something out of a quote (italicized part) above. It should read:
In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They were divided into groups training 1, 2, or 3 days per week. They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

Also, in listing the things BBS says, I forgot one (#4). The list should read:

1. You shouldn't (or at least need not) do strength training more than about once per week.

2. You should lift to failure.

3. You should lift very slowly.

4. Short intense exercise is better for the cardiovascular system than long slow exercise.

I'm not totally convinced of point 4, but it seems reasonable, and supported by the fact that long runs don't prepare you for long bike rides, and vice versa.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:22 AM   #150
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Concerning lifting to failure -- Ha, do you think that is bad, or just unnecessary? I figure that if effort is important, then lifting to failure is best because it's maximum effort. And there isn't a big difference between the way I used to lift and lifting to failure -- usually just an additional rep.

I'm always interested in getting the most efficiency out of things. True, the 2x per week lifting "worked for me" for years, but if I can get almost the same benefit from 1x per week, I'm on it.

Note that for a professional weight lifter, if 2x/week or 3x/week gives them 10% better results, then it's worth it for them. If you depend on results for contest or money, that's a good trade-off. For me, not so much.

Quote:
I think what I refer to, in part, is that strength increases are not the only goal of fitness training. There are metabolic effects such as glucose tolerance, muscular hypertrophy, endurance, aerobic conditioning, etc. etc. I maintain that this stuff is in fact fairly complex, and that the simplifications chosen for a given study at times may not be helpful to one's real world goals.
Very true, but I'm betting that, within the ranges that we are talking about, being stronger = being healthier. Also, being stronger is a good real-world goal in itself.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:37 AM   #151
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Who knows where the truth lies. All I know is that after almost four months using the BBS HIT workout once a week my muscle tone and definition is (subjectively) better than it was when I did three sessions a week. Like Al mentions -- those sessions were just a bit less intense than what I am doing now but the additional intensity feels significant.

Now, it is probably important to note that I was not aiming for overall fitness with weights in the first place - just tone, cosmetics, and the generally accepted bone and other benefits of weights. I still think (and I could be totally wrong on this) that the riding I continue to do contributes more to general health and fitness. If nothing else, it has good psychological benefits. As to Ha's assertion that $100 would get another rep -- absolutely. I suspect that if I was doing these sessions with a HIT trainer who would push me that extra rep or two I would be popping out of my shirts. The other thing Ha, if you actually try this to see if it works over a month or two - remember, you are aiming for four or five core exercises, one set each, with 10-12 reps leading to "failure." If you do something different your are doing something different
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:53 AM   #152
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cosmetics, tone, and the generally accepted bone
This would be a good signature line.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:22 PM   #153
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I do not believe in any one size fits all approach. Everyone responds differently to exercise. Working out 1x/week may be great for some, others may need 5x/week. You need to listen to your body and make adjustments. Also, what ever you do should be a function of what your goals are (eg gain strength, increase muscle mass, train for a sport, lose weight, just stay healthy, etc). For me, weight lifting 3X/week works best and gives me sufficient time to recuperate. I try and keep each session to about 1 hr and I progressively (slowly) try to up the amount of weight I lift over time.

That said, anything out there that sounds too good to be true probably is, so I would tend to agree with what Ha is saying.

My goals for working out are as follows:
1) Health
2) Strength
3) Body Building
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:23 PM   #154
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For me, weight lifting 3X/week works best and gives me sufficient time to recuperate.
But the question is "How do you know that that is what works best for you?"

If the answer is "Well, I know because for six months I lifted once a week, and then for the next six months I lifted twice a week, and for the six months after that I lifted three times a week, and after that four times per week, and I found that I did the best job of meeting my goals when it was three times a week." Then I will agree that that is what works best for you.

If the answer is "Well, that is what my body tells me," then I don't think you really know the answer.

Even if I did the above two-year experiment, I still wouldn't know the answer, because of placebo effects, and the fact that after each six month period I will be at a different starting point.

So if I wanted to know which frequency is most efficient, I would assemble a bunch of people, assign them randomly to the different groups, and objectively measure their progress. Luckily, I don't have to do that because it's been done 9 or 10 times, and the results in almost every case show that 1x/week is almost as good as 2x or 3x.

I'm trying not to sound argumentative here. I just want to explore this idea in depth.

Also, there are lots off things that sound too good to be true, but are indeed true. Sex and libraries are two examples.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:50 PM   #155
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But the question is "How do you know that that is what works best for you?"

If the answer is "Well, I know because for six months I lifted once a week, and then for the next six months I lifted twice a week, and for the six months after that I lifted three times a week, and after that four times per week, and I found that I did the best job of meeting my goals when it was three times a week." Then I will agree that that is what works best for you.

If the answer is "Well, that is what my body tells me," then I don't think you really know the answer.
Thats a fair question, but as in life there are not always simple answers. In my opinion, the answer lies in between these two choices and some experimentation is needed on you, not on some test group of people. For one, I do not believe it will take six months to see if a particular routine is working for you. Six weeks is probably sufficient, maybe less. Regarding what your body is telling you, if you can't reasonably recuperate from anything you are doing within a few days time, its probably an indicator of over work, and to that end, I am certainly not an advocate that more is better.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:29 PM   #156
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Also, there are lots off things that sound too good to be true, but are indeed true. Sex and libraries are two examples.
Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:50 PM   #157
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Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...
How about sex in libraries?
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:32 PM   #158
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How about sex in libraries?
That falls under too good to be true
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:41 PM   #159
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Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...
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How about sex in libraries?
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That falls under too good to be true
Heck there is probably a forum for licentious librarians.

Edit: Thinking of the alliteration, I figured "let me Google that": http://licentiouslibrarian.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-06-2011, 04:12 PM   #160
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