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Old 11-14-2009, 10:21 AM   #21
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I came back to delete my post, but then found a lot of people agreeing with me.

I was going to delete it because I had been thinking in terms of aspirin, and not in terms of things like statins. So what I said wasn't a fair comparison.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
So, avoidance of known carcinogens (tobacco, high dose alcohol, certain chemicals,) and taking "preventive" agents for cancer are two different topics.

As to the latter, evidence is very difficult to obtain. You really can't control or check people's food intake for 20-40 years. You can't construct and follow an otherwise identical population for decades. You can't control their weight or exercise very easily for that long. And family history is important. So scientists are forced to do studies whose design is more susceptible to interpretation problem.

Fiber, vitamin E, folate, vitamin B are examples that had their moment in the sun, then were discredited by similar studies showing no benefit. Jury is still out on finasteride's overall risk/benefit profile. Estrogens were felt to save lives from coronary disease more than they caused cancer mortality, but no longer is that the case (and heart disease went down in men, too).

Finasteride is not a slam dunk. Early less aggressive tumors did drop in the treatment group, but more aggressive and dangerous tumors actually went UP in the finasteride arm. Overall mortality was not affected.

So, what can you do? Avoid any unproven agent that has not had widespread, longstanding usage as a food or nutrient. Avoid changing lifestyle on the basis of the latest "trend." Most of all get skinny and stay that way. Then get skinnier and stay that way.

When something is proven -- really proven -- to prevent cancer, you'll likely know about it from multiple sources including many with no vested financial interest.

And if prevention is your goal, did I mention getting skinny? Then you can chuck the statins, metformin, and blood pressure pills while you're at it. Plus, you'll be less likely to get cancer.
Gosh, Rich - I wish you were my doctor!!! You are so sensible and logical and articulate!

Audrey
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:49 AM   #23
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Lest we start to overthink this issue:

"Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time." ~ George Carlin
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:00 PM   #24
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At 6'4" and 175# I think I qualify as skinny - but my cholesterol was at 230 or so, so on the statins I went. I did convince my Doc that a try at 20mg vs 40mg was worthwhile a couple years ago and now I'm at 135. So I feel good about that. Doing the 81mg aspirin 'cause it's a really old drug and cheap. Do think that when we were eating oatmeal on a regular basis it had a serious effect on cholesterol levels.

Currently following the dicta of some new age quack named Sinatra for heart health I'm taking L-Argenine, L-Carnitine, D-Ribose, and CoQ-10 with my baby aspirin, 20mg Lipitor, Centrum vitamin, C, and Glucosamine. Probably be better off just eating more broccoli and oatmeal.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
So, avoidance of known carcinogens (tobacco, high dose alcohol, certain chemicals,) and taking "preventive" agents for cancer are two different topics.

As to the latter, evidence is very difficult to obtain. You really can't control or check people's food intake for 20-40 years. You can't construct and follow an otherwise identical population for decades. You can't control their weight or exercise very easily for that long.

So, what can you do? Avoid any unproven agent that has not had widespread, longstanding usage as a food or nutrient. Avoid changing lifestyle on the basis of the latest "trend." Most of all get skinny and stay that way. Then get skinnier and stay that way.

And if prevention is your goal, did I mention getting skinny? Then you can chuck the statins, metformin, and blood pressure pills while you're at it. Plus, you'll be less likely to get cancer.
Great posting. As somebody else stated, I wish you were my doctor.

You said evidence is very difficult to obtain. With that in mind, isn't it still a possibility that eating enough fruits and vegetables would help? And that together with exercise a person should have an easier of reaching the goal of being skinnier.

How would you measure being skinny? BMI, BodyFat, waist to height ratio or just plain weight?
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:14 AM   #26
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You said evidence is very difficult to obtain. With that in mind, isn't it still a possibility that eating enough fruits and vegetables would help?
Yes, it is still a possibility.

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How would you measure being skinny? BMI, BodyFat, waist to height ratio or just plain weight?
Waist alone is as good as any measure. BMI is most common but falls short at very high or low muscle mass. Waist to hip is pretty good. Waist to height is a bit iffy like BMI.

I like waist alone, though. It has the advantage of identifying that group where the total weight is OK but due to "central adiposity" the risk is higher than optimal - the otherwise lean group of mostly men who keep a small pot belly, sometimes cleverly discussed as an inner tube going clear around to the flank and back. The risk is there, but the other measurements won't always show it. It's most useful in those with an upper normal BMI (e.g. 25 range).
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As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:52 AM   #27
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Fat Around Critical Organs Heart, Liver Best Predictor of Decreased Heart Function

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Body mass index (BMI) the much talked about measure of obesity and subsequent health risks when an individual scores too high is not the best predictor of some important health dangers, such as cardiovascular problems. ... fat collection in different body locations, such as around the heart and the aorta and within the liver, are a better indicator of decreased heart functions.

... also found that measuring a person's BMI does not reliably predict the amount of undesired fat in and around these vital organs.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:25 PM   #28
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rats - at 6'1", I have a waist of 36.5 and hips at 38 giving a WHR of 0.96 which higher than the recommended 0.95 for men (BMI is 23.3).

I also knew it was a problem being a "bumless wonder".
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