Ccrc--good bad and ?

[Huston55]

I've realized that there are several different types of contracts for CCRCs, and the names of the types seem to vary. For example, one type of CCRC I'm familiar with from my area (I just took a tour, in fact) has no "entrance" fee, you pay monthly rent for independent housing, and when you move to nursing or assisted living your monthly payment rises. Another type of CCRC has a "lifecare" contract where you pay a very large entrance fee, and then your monthly fee stays the same whether you are in the independent housing side or the nursing/assisted living side. In this type of contract, it appears that all care/nursing/etc in the nursing/assisted living side is covered by your monthly fee.
What I've been trying to understand is how my current LTC plan "works" at CCRCs of various types. If a CCRC has a "lifecare" contract such as the one I mention above, why would one need LTC insurance?
My LTC rate has just risen 26%, so I'm trying to figure out whether I want to drop it or renew it.

Marita-

I can't advise you on the 'drop or renew LTCi' choice. But, I can offer advise on the LTCi/CCRC question.

If you have (and plan to keep) your LTCi, then you would be better off choosing a 'no entry fee' CCRC contract (typically known as a "Type C" contract). This is because, the LTCi & the 'entry fee' for a "Type A" CCRC contract are protecting you from the same risk. No need paying for essentially the same thing twice.

Suggest reading the CCRC FAQ as recommended/linked by REWahoo.

 

[pgiyer]

Hello to everyone on this community forum.
I have been reading these threads, but this is my first post, prompted by this great thread.
My thanks to OP and everyone who contributed to this thread.
I am 62, DW 60, and we are in the initial stages of confronting our inevitable aging and mortality. We wish to to leave with least disturbance to everyone else

My question: Do CCRCs go bankrupt, and if they do, what happens to the Residents?

 

[Scuba]

There haven't been too many CCRC bankruptcies, but Erickson was a big one about 10 years ago. I believe all residents were allowed to stay in the communities but another operator took over. Don't believe any residents lost their entrance fees, but having a different organization manage a community vs original expectations isn't ideal.

 

[Brat]

There is a certification organization that evaluates the financials of a CCRC. As much as the CCRC wants to review your financials you should have a professional review theirs. Take a close look at their articles of incorporation and if it can be bought out. If you pay a substantial entrance fee determine what happens to your money and if it is held in a trust account.

 

[Scuba]

Just be aware that the business model of most CCRC's is to use entrance fees rather than place them in a trust account. If the CCRC is using entrance fees to fund current operations, that's a big red flag. If the CCRC is investing entrance fees in their investment portfolio and/or capital improvements to the CCRC, that's a sign of a well-managed CCRC. I agree with having the CCRC's financial statements professionally reviewed. Their CFO should be accessible and willing to address any questions or concerns.

 

[athena53]

There haven't been too many CCRC bankruptcies, but Erickson was a big one about 10 years ago. I believe all residents were allowed to stay in the communities but another operator took over. Don't believe any residents lost their entrance fees, but having a different organization manage a community vs original expectations isn't ideal.

That's sad news- there was one in our area (KC suburb) and they used to send a newsletter. That was the kind of place where I aspired to move when I could no longer live on my own. The residents were working on prairie grass restoration projects, bird houses, etc. If you wanted to move to another Erickson community, you could, I guess I should have noticed it when they stopped sending newsletters.

 

[explanade]

Well I never got a chance to read up on a lot of the references in this thread.

My father's health has deteriorated in the last few months, first with double vision in one eye to coughing that causes headaches and decrease in mobility. He's lost strength in his legs and can barely move now.

He's had a CAT scan and is scheduled for an MRI.

Mentally he seems the same and is trying to maintain his daily routine, which involves driving around. At almost 84 (in December), he hasn't been sedentary.

My folks eat out a lot now, because they don't want to cook. So they're driving and running around every day.

I haven't mentioned looking at a CCRC to them. I think they'd be reluctant because of the costs, especially if it consumes a big portion of the money they're planning to leave to their children.

They're alert and show no signs of mental deterioration except my mother seems to be more forgetful, not remembering appointments or taking a beat to remember where their car was parked, for instance.

But the recent sudden changes makes me think more about this. By coincidence, I received in the mail this week an invitation to visit a facility nearby, with the carrot of a $25 gift card if I visit by the end of the month.

I Googled the company name (Brookdale, "Senior Living Solutions") and the Yelp reviews for the local facility weren't that great.

 

[growing_older]

In my area, Brookdale runs a number of centers which are NOT CCRC, they are just some kind of independent or slightly assisted living. Be sure you know what the center really covers if you are looking for CCRC.

Also, many centers (don't know about Brookdale) require new residents to begin in at least somewhat independent living. If you allow health to deteriorate too much before applying, you may no longer qualify for admission.

 

[explanade]

Yeah and they are also above the median/average age of entry as well.

So may not be an option.

 

[nwsteve]

Brookdale properties are IMHO, mid market at best. They do the basics and stay out of trouble with regulators. Contrast offerings with the likes of a Merrill Gardens, Aegis, or ERA Living to get a perspective.
CCRCs tend to be more local than national. To get into a Type A property usually need to come in via Independent Living and be in reasonably good health--must be able to live independently.

 

[explanade]

Live independently for how long?

It appears these facilities will sell you properties for IL so you're near the service staff?

Sounds like weekly house cleanings and one or two meals a day are typical for IL?

 

[nwsteve]

Every property pretty much writes their own interpretation. Also depends on the type of CCRC--Type A (Life Care) are generally more stringent than B & C which are more rental agreements and your rates increases (often by a lot) as you move up the care spectrum.
Really important you invest the time to read the fine print on the contracts.

 

[Walt34]

Live independently for how long?

As short as one night. Really, that was the experience with FIL.

To make a long story short:

He waited far too long to realize that he could not stay in the house and would have to move. Fortunately we found a place that was well-regarded and had available apartments. He spent one night in the place, DW took him to the ER the next day because he was sleeping so much and was admitted with a blood sugar level of 856. That did extensive damage and he was in a wheelchair or bedridden in full nursing care for what remained of his life.

Every property pretty much writes their own interpretation.

Exactly. I have done a lot of reading on CCRCs and found that what I think are the better ones are open about what the costs are. If they make you send away for a packet of material, or worst of all, make you visit, to find out what the costs are that is a red flag. I found none that put the expenses on the first page but that is to be expected, the better ones do tend to be more expensive depending on the area of the country they are in. But costs should be on the web site.

 

[imoldernu]

I firmly believe that selection of a CCRC should only be made after more than one personal visit... and that every aspect should be seen... living quarters, rehab, dining room, kitchen. In particular, a half hour walk through of the nursing home section... to see exactly what kind of care the patients are receiving. In the assisted living section, time to talk to the current residents to find their likes and complaints.

I would be less respectful of any ratings, whether from the major services, and more particularly those services that purport to find the right place for an aging relative. At the same time, I would would not take state ratings at face value. State inspections can be incredibly picky... with ratings being destroyed on the basis of very minor violations... often subject to the biases of the inspectors. (This latter observation from DW who worked as an activities director, and one of my sons who during his school days worked in the kitchen of the same nursing home.)

Before we moved into our CCRC, we spent several days... visiting and talking with residents, well apart from the normal guided tour.

The time spent in selection, whether for self or a loved one will be miniscule compared to the future... We've seen the terrible problems that making the wrong choice have caused those who moved from an unsatisfactory center later in life.

 

[Scuba]

In my area, Brookdale runs a number of centers which are NOT CCRC, they are just some kind of independent or slightly assisted living. Be sure you know what the center really covers if you are looking for CCRC.

Also, many centers (don't know about Brookdale) require new residents to begin in at least somewhat independent living. If you allow health to deteriorate too much before applying, you may no longer qualify for admission.

+1
I don't think Brookdale has any CCRC's. And qualifying for admission to a CCRC requires a reasonable level of independence.

 

[Scuba]

I firmly believe that selection of a CCRC should only be made after more than one personal visit... and that every aspect should be seen... living quarters, rehab, dining room, kitchen. In particular, a half hour walk through of the nursing home section... to see exactly what kind of care the patients are receiving. In the assisted living section, time to talk to the current residents to find their likes and complaints.



I would be less respectful of any ratings, whether from the major services, and more particularly those services that purport to find the right place for an aging relative. At the same time, I would would not take state ratings at face value. State inspections can be incredibly picky... with ratings being destroyed on the basis of very minor violations... often subject to the biases of the inspectors. (This latter observation from DW who worked as an activities director, and one of my sons who during his school days worked in the kitchen of the same nursing home.)



Before we moved into our CCRC, we spent several days... visiting and talking with residents, well apart from the normal guided tour.



The time spent in selection, whether for self or a loved one will be miniscule compared to the future... We've seen the terrible problems that making the wrong choice have caused those who moved from an unsatisfactory center later in life.

Excellent advice!

 

[ohyes]

While I know nothing about CCRCs, but intend to read about them, an assisted living facility nearby recently became part of Brookdale.

Brookdale may adhere to much higher standards elsewhere, but I am not impressed with this location. I have visited folks at this place many times as a hospice volunteer.

No thank you....hope I never, ever am forced to reside there.

 

[medved]

Brookdale is reported to be an acquisition target. There have been prior rumors of possible acquisition by a PE fund and, most recently, by a Chinese company. I don't know what impact, if any, a change of control would have on residents. My wild guess is that additional financial capability and liquidity could be a good thing.