Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-17-2012, 10:41 AM   #21
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: ...that depends...
Posts: 54
Well it is CNN, sadly not exactly a neutral approach usually.

I have observed healthcare closeup in Switzerland, and the UK, while living there. Sorry it is not on par with the U.S. for a variety of reasons. The Swiss approach works pretty well though but only as they have a small population, and _much_ closer control on immigration than the U.S. - is is not easy to become even a long term resident. Not anything like Obamacare, for these and other reasons by the way. In London I was surprised to see treatments and methods that were in many ways ten years behind the States. Also they have 'private' clinics where those with money prefer. I should add that Switzerland and the UK are two of the most expensive places one can live, thanks to sky high taxes.

Grass is always greener...until it's not. Look closely on who would make the decisions, and why the U.S. has contributed more breakthroughs in medicine in the last 75 years than elsewhere...even without sorely needed tort reform...but that is another issue...
__________________

__________________
It is the journey!
SpencerM is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-17-2012, 10:46 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerM View Post
Well it is CNN, sadly not exactly a neutral approach usually.
May well be, but I'll wait and see the program...
__________________

__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 10:54 AM   #23
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
And the law fines employers who fail to buy insurance for employees. None of this is consistent with the intent of phasing out the link between employment and health insurance: The public isn't being told by the administrators of the program that the goal is to get employers out of the picture, and the employers get to pay a fine for doing what the drafters of the law want them to do?
Listen not to what politicians say, but instead what they do.

The penalties are sized to reimburse the government for the subsidies they'll have to pay if employers kick employees on to exchanges.

The excise tax is initially sized to hit very few insurance plans but to hit an increasing number as time goes on.

It's obvious, to me at least, that the intent is to revoke the current insurance tax break enjoyed by employers while holding the government harmless if they decide to dump employees on to the exchange as a result.
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 10:56 AM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
I don't actually think this is true. ACA is in many important respects the reform the Herritage Foundation dreamed up, certain current presidential candidates proposed nationally, implemented locally and now completely reject.

The ideological divide used to be between a single payer government system and a private system where strong regulation blunted known market failures. That is a worthwile debate to have between two workable solutions to a complex problem.

Today, we've passed legislation that moves strongly in favor of the private system, which is itself a huge compromise. But in so doing, the middle ground has shifted dramatically. Now the debate is between a private system with strong regulation and . . . nothing - or at least nothing obvious or comprehensive. That's not a reasonable debate to be having, and not one that is going to have any middle ground by definition.
To me, the biggest shift in the middle ground, possible area for compromise, was when the public option provision of the ACA was dropped. I always thought that was the middle ground between a single payer system and doing little or nothing. And wouldn't the public option have had a lesser or no challenge passing constitutional muster because many of the lawsuits claim that the ACA forces people to buy insurance from a private entity (which the public option is not)?
__________________
Retired in late 2008 at age 45. Cashed in company stock, bought a lot of shares in a big bond fund and am living nicely off its dividends. IRA, SS, and a pension await me at age 60 and later. No kids, no debts.

"I want my money working for me instead of me working for my money!"
scrabbler1 is online now  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:00 AM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,334
Here is a history of the British NHS from the BBC.

The NHS: what can we learn from history? | BBC History Magazine

My main point is that the British system they have today has evolved over time. Our system will also have to do that.

One should really read the entire article. It is not that long, but for those who don't here are the conclusions.

Three lessons from history
1. The NHS ideal of universal access at the point of need was unique and has retained its popularity. Politicians are likely to remain ultimately responsible through government tax funding.
2. Delivery of the ideal continues to present problems. The structures put in place in 1948 were flawed, giving doctors too great an influence, a focus on sickness rather than positive health, and a lack of democratic input.
3. Such structural problems, or attempts to deal with them, are often presented as new initiatives, when they have a history. How ‘polyclinics’ or local democracy operated in the past could inform today’s policy discussions.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:04 AM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,334
Below is a history of the British NHS and how it has been reformed (or disorganized as some would say) from 1974 to 2006.

As you can see from the chronology table in the article, it took a long time to get it to where it is now. But, despite the problems, I have yet to meet a Brit who would trade their system for ours, or who would want to disband the NHS and go back to what they had pre 1948.

Reform of the National Health Service - a chronology
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:17 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrabbler1 View Post
To me, the biggest shift in the middle ground, possible area for compromise, was when the public option provision of the ACA was dropped.
That was obviously a compromise on the part of one side, which itself was a compromise of their ideal single payer plan. But as they say, "It takes two to Tango." One wonders how much better a place we'd be in today if there were two willing dance partners.
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:25 AM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
That was obviously a compromise on the part of one side, which itself was a compromise of their ideal single payer plan. But as they say, "It takes two to Tango." One wonders how much better a place we'd be in today if there were two willing dance partners.
And here we go again . . . right down the road that leads to the pig.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:47 AM   #29
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,982
I really like Fareed's perspective on issues and his GPS show is always a learning experience and I suspect the healthcare show will be great as well. As far as ACA goes, it is overly complex and convoluted with way too many exceptions and doesn't do much for cost containment. That said, if ACA is a good basis for change, "everyone" should be made to comply without exception.
__________________
DFW_M5 is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:03 PM   #30
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
And here we go again . . . right down the road that leads to the pig.
I was just hoping to provide a program note, but discussion is hard to resist on health care, self included...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:11 PM   #31
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
And here we go again . . . right down the road that leads to the pig.
It's an important topic and one that's critical for many people who are FIREd and hope to FIRE. It is *the* 800 pound gorilla standing between millions and the ability to retire (or STAY retired). It's certainly the largest obstacle in my way, by a country mile.

But unfortunately these discussions tend to inevitably veer into the same clash of ideologies and political finger-pointing that have brought the Pig out so many times in the past. I think it's safe to say that these clashes haven't really worked very well in the past, as referenced by the mess we have now...
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:18 PM   #32
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: No Where for Very Long
Posts: 747
I don't think we've reached the tipping point yet. Most folks with decent employer sponsored health insurance seem to be satisfied with the status quo. If/when that group becomes the minority, I'd bet on change...
__________________

Lancelot is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:23 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
It is *the* 800 pound gorilla standing between millions and the ability to retire (or STAY retired). It's certainly the largest obstacle in my way, by a country mile.
For sure. But when we start talking about which "side" has compromised and which has been intransigent on this, well, I'll choose to stay on track and not go down that road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I think it's safe to say that these clashes haven't really worked very well in the past, as referenced by the mess we have now...
It's the system we have. Sometimes it works well (it's not hard to find middle ground between a proposed tax rate of 15% and one of 10%). But sometimes it fails utterly. A compromise that results in an individual mandate and universal coverage (driving up the demand for insurance and care) but virtually no cost controls is an example of a process failure--a result that might prove to be worse than the "pure" plan proposed by either side.
Luckily, I think the process will work, but only after the thing proves so obviously failed that the popular consensus moves and we have an election result that allows a coherent plan to be built. The same thing will happen on spending/the budget, probably precipitated by a backlash among holders of US debt. When it's popularly recognized as a crisis, we'll fix it. Until then, we're just a frog in the beaker oblivious to the rising water temperature.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
I don't think we've reached the tipping point yet. Most folks with decent employer sponsored health insurance seem to be satisfied with the status quo. If/when that group becomes the minority, I'd bet on change...
Unforunately you're probably right. But I wonder if they realized they're actually paying the full amount, and how much that is - if they'd be more interested?
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:51 PM   #35
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W
Posts: 5,884
Unfortunately just about every article or TV story that covers obamacare seems to be slanted right or left. The authors/producers of the segment/article always depends on whose ox is gored or to-be-gored. I caught part of this CNN documentary and eventually went channel surfing. If I see it on again I think I'll TIVO it and watch it is small chunks. I'm willing to try it again since so many of you folks think it have a good message.
__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:54 PM   #36
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
A compromise that results in an individual mandate and universal coverage (driving up the demand for insurance and care) but virtually no cost controls is an example of a process failure--a result that might prove to be worse than the "pure" plan proposed by either side.
I think you'll find almost everyone on both sides (all sides?) of this debate will agree that the lack of cost controls in the ACA is a major disappointment. Ultimately that is the worst problem in our system -- address runaway costs and everything else, including universal coverage and elimination of underwriting among other things, probably become a lot easier to address. Not breaking the employer link or a tax system that encourages delivery of health insurance through employment is a big part of this problem, too.

I can only assume the hope is that a year or two under ACA will reveal the deficiencies in the law for all to see, and that we can address them appropriately. Unfortunately that also requires that Washington be open minded and not intractably welded to their respective base.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 02:06 PM   #37
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd View Post
I caught part of this CNN documentary and eventually went channel surfing. If I see it on again I think I'll TIVO it and watch it is small chunks. I'm willing to try it again since so many of you folks think it have a good message.
Unless I'm mistaken, this hasn't aired before. I don't know what the message is yet.
Quote:
The first GPS special of 2012, Global Lessons: The GPS Road Map for Saving Health Care, will debut on Sunday, March 18 at 8:00pm and 11:00pm ET & PT on CNN/U.S.
In this special, I look around the world for insights into how to raise the quality and lower the cost of health care in the United States.
Saving Health Care will replay on Saturday, March 24 at 8:00pm and 11:00pm ET and PT on CNN/U.S.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #38
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Free To Canoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cooksburg,PA
Posts: 1,738
Great post Midpack!
I will be sure to watch.
__________________
Free to canoe
Free To Canoe is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:45 PM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W
Posts: 5,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, this hasn't aired before. I don't know what the message is yet.
Thanks. I must have seen something else on CNN that was simular to this.
__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:06 PM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I think you'll find almost everyone on both sides (all sides?) of this debate will agree that the lack of cost controls in the ACA is a major disappointment.
Everyone agrees that more cost control is better than less cost control. Fortunately ACA includes the largest set of initiatives we've ever implemented to control healthcare costs. (Kaiser summary of cost control initiatives begin on pg 8 of this pdf)
__________________

__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Government's New Plan for Retirees Includes Pink Slime, Horse Meat, & Horse Hockey mickeyd FIRE and Money 63 04-04-2012 02:43 PM
Hi I am Dan - SSA Benefits for Minor Children danhart Hi, I am... 40 03-20-2012 12:58 PM
has anyone ever taken a job for less? tulak Young Dreamers 49 03-19-2012 07:17 AM
CNN special: Road Map for Saving Health Care Midpack Health and Early Retirement 44 03-18-2012 08:04 PM
MPT -"Investment Strategies for the 21st Century" seraphim Stock Picking and Market Strategy 10 03-16-2012 10:49 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.