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Old 04-09-2013, 06:09 PM   #41
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Just facts maam.

I did not read the entire paper, though would be interest in knowing just how much more bad stuff is produced by omnivore humans as compared to vegan humans.

Here is the abstract:

Nature Medicine | Article
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Intestinal microbiota metabolism of l-carnitine, a nutrient in red meat, promotes atherosclerosis

Nature Medicine(2013)doi:10.1038/nm.3145 Received 07 December 2012 Accepted 27 February 2013 Published online 07 April 2013 Article tools


Abstract

Intestinal microbiota metabolism of choline and phosphatidylcholine produces trimethylamine (TMA), which is further metabolized to a proatherogenic species, trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO). We demonstrate here that metabolism by intestinal microbiota of dietary l-carnitine, a trimethylamine abundant in red meat, also produces TMAO and accelerates atherosclerosis in mice. Omnivorous human subjects produced more TMAO than did vegans or vegetarians following ingestion of l-carnitine through a microbiota-dependent mechanism. The presence of specific bacterial taxa in human feces was associated with both plasma TMAO concentration and dietary status. Plasma l-carnitine levels in subjects undergoing cardiac evaluation (n = 2,595) predicted increased risks for both prevalent cardiovascular disease (CVD) and incident major adverse cardiac events (myocardial infarction, stroke or death), but only among subjects with concurrently high TMAO levels. Chronic dietary l-carnitine supplementation in mice altered cecal microbial composition, markedly enhanced synthesis of TMA and TMAO, and increased atherosclerosis, but this did not occur if intestinal microbiota was concurrently suppressed. In mice with an intact intestinal microbiota, dietary supplementation with TMAO or either carnitine or choline reduced in vivo reverse cholesterol transport. Intestinal microbiota may thus contribute to the well-established link between high levels of red meat consumption and CVD risk.


Edit add:

And following the money:
Competing financial interests

Z.W. and B.S.L. are named as co-inventors on pending patents held by the Cleveland Clinic relating to cardiovascular diagnostics and have the right to receive royalty payments for inventions or discoveries related to cardiovascular diagnostics from Liposciences. W.H.W.T. received research grant support from Abbott Laboratories and served as a consultant for Medtronic and St. Jude Medical. S.L.H. and J.D.S. are named as co-inventors on pending and issued patents held by the Cleveland Clinic relating to cardiovascular diagnostics and therapeutics patents. S.L.H. has been paid as a consultant or speaker by the following companies: Cleveland Heart Lab., Esperion, Liposciences, Merck & Co. and Pfizer. He has received research funds from Abbott, Cleveland Heart Lab., Esperion and Liposciences and has the right to receive royalty payments for inventions or discoveries related to cardiovascular diagnostics from Abbott Laboratories, Cleveland Heart Lab., Frantz Biomarkers, Liposciences and Siemens.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:33 PM   #42
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I read once that healthy eating at less calories that you needed would extend your life but a 100 years is a long time to be hungry. Sorry I can't remember who said that. I recently looked after a lady who lived to well over a 100 and she thought god had forgotten her. A little unhealthy living may save us from that?
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:49 PM   #43
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I did not read the entire paper, though would be interest in knowing just how much more bad stuff is produced by omnivore humans as compared to vegan humans.
To read the whole paper I guess you'd have to pay some cash for it, hehe.

The title of the paper sounds like it was written for the general media to pick up; anybody in the profession would know what l-carintine is and what foods contain it.

I'd be interested to know how much more "bad stuff" would be produced on a keto adapted population. The population they reported on were already in trouble (going in to have their hearts checked). I wonder how many of them were diabetec or metabolic syndrome. The result might be more about the study's population than anything.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by freebird5825

Pizza and chicken wings (baked) still tops my list of favorite foods.
Ditto, except add ice cream
TJ
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:35 AM   #45
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All kidding aside, this study is flawed in several respects.

First, much of it is based on mouse-based research, which may not apply to humans.

Second, it is laying the blame on gut bacteria, not red meat. From the abstract:
Quote:
Intestinal microbiota may thus contribute to the well-established link between high levels of red meat consumption and CVD risk.
Third, that sentence I pulled from the abstract is not even true. There is no such "well-established link".
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:29 AM   #46
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Again?

Fat Head » Here We Go Again: Another Meat Kills! Study

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As I explained in my Big Fat Fiasco speech, this technique is referred to as teleoanalysis. In a nutshell, it works like this: we can’t prove that A causes C, but if we can find evidence that A is linked to B and B is linked to C, we’ll go ahead and declare that A causes C.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:11 PM   #47
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All kidding aside, this study is flawed in several respects.

First, much of it is based on mouse-based research, which may not apply to humans.
Except for the blood drawn from the 2,500 people, naturally, and the other 10,000 people he studied over the years, and of course the group that he gave the antibiotics to.

But I see your point. The study didn't show us what happens when humans get concentrated doses of TMAO. I assume they didn't get too many volunteers for that experiment ("Hey, we'll feed you steak this entire week. All you do is get a shot that may or may not give you accelerated heart disease.")
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:37 PM   #48
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Who was kidding? (Oh! Yeah...)

TMAO? LMAO. « Eathropology

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We know that red meat maybe almost probably for sure contributes to heart disease, because that wild bunch at Harvard just keeps cranking out studies like this one, Eat Red Meat and You Will Die Soon.

This study and others just like it definitely prove that if you are a white, well-educated, middle/upper-middle class health professional born between 1920 and 1946 and you smoke and drink, but you don’t exercise, watch your weight, or take a multivitamin, then eating red meat will maybe almost probably for sure increase your risk of heart disease. With evidence like that, who needs evidence?
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Perhaps their suspicions were alerted by studies such as this one, that found that, in randomized, controlled trials, with over 65 thousand participants, people who reduced or changed their dietary fat intake didn’t actually live any longer than the people who just kept eating and enjoying the same artery-clogging, saturated fat- and cholesterol-laden foods that they always had. (However, this research was able to determine that a steady diet of broiled chicken breasts does in fact make the years crawl by more slowly.)
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:22 PM   #49
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The study is flawed - don't give up your red meat just yet. Check out these rebuttals:

Red Meat and TMAO: Cause for Concern, or Another Red Herring?

Does Carnitine From Red Meat Contribute to Heart Disease Through Intestinal Bacterial Metabolism to TMAO? | Mother Nature Obeyed - Weston A Price Foundation

The second rebuttal (from Chris Masterjohn) above is very thorough but very long, so for those who want the bottom line, here it is:

The Bottom Line

The bottom line here is that the popular interpretation of this study as an indictment of red meat makes no sense. Even if physiological levels of TMAO contribute to heart disease in humans (which is a big “if” at this point) and even if red meat were to raise TMAO substantially more than most other foods (which appears to be false), it wouldn’t in any way whatsoever follow that eating red meat causes heart disease. The biological effects of a food cannot possibly be reduced to oneof the biological effects of one of the food’s components. Believing such a thing would require believing not only that the particular component has no other relevant biological effects, but that there are no relevant biological effects of any of the other tens of thousands of components of that food.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:50 PM   #50
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Whistling past the graveyard.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:56 PM   #51
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I have a rack of ribs smoking all day, should be done in about an hour. I put a couple of baking potatoes in there about a half hour ago, and DW just got some corn bread ready to pop into the oven.

In any event, I tune out all these health scares and just live with "all things in moderation." I think the reduced stress about what you are putting into your bodies has to offset some of the "badness" of some of what you are eating.
Don't eat those baked potatoes!! They'll give you diabetes!
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:43 PM   #52
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I'm tellin' ya! Thank heavens we are still able to find Internet postings proving that chocolate is good for a body, or I'd just have to stop eating all together:

Heart-Health Benefits of Chocolate Unveiled

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Don't eat those baked potatoes!! They'll give you diabetes!
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:48 AM   #53
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Whistling past the graveyard.
It isn't whistling past the graveyard to question conventional dietary guidelines and take a skeptical view of the latest horror story linking one type of food or another to heart disease, cancer, whatever. What is whistling past the graveyard is to blindly ride the low fat bandwagon while gaining a reliable one pound per year for thirty years which was my experience and that of a lot of people around me. After reading a boat load of material pro and con I tried a low carb diet and lost 30 pounds which I have kept off for a year. That loss, and the concommitant improvement of my lab numbers, as far as I can find from everything I read, will have a huge impact on my health both with respect to heart disease and type 2 diabetes. The potential negative impact of various practices highlighted by these linkage studies are vanishingly small in comparison - assuming the studies' conclusions are warranted in the first place. So I plan to stick with the approach I am on for now. Nevertheless, the fact that I am doing well doesn't prove to me that the theories surrounding low carb are themselves true, or that the approach will work the same way for everybody. My wife lost some weight on the same approach but not nearly as much as I did. I am the cook and watched what she ate so I know she wasn't fooling herself. She is now experimenting with alternatives, including lower fat than I thrive on.

I follow as much of this stuff as I can including reading reports of the steak study in this thread and the rebuttal articles that RAE linked. I plan to experiment around the edges as I gain information that makes some sense to me. For example, I have added back moderate amounts of so called "safe starches" (potatoes and rice) with no ill effect over the past two months. The one thing I am not going to do is eliminate major portions of my diet that I love and thrive on based on negative health correlations that appear exceedingly small when viewed in the context. I will drop anything that studies show to substantially harmful to a degree that I find to be compelling. Unfortunately sugar was one of those things. Red meat and saturated fat are not isn't even close at this point.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:54 AM   #54
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... "safe starches" (potatoes and rice)...
Safe? In what way?
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:00 AM   #55
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And speaking of Sugar, here's an interesting thought:

Fat Head » Sugars and Cancer

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A reader asked me for some information on cancer and sugar, so I pulled up some items from my research database. As long as I had the articles in front of me, I thought I’d share them.

Nothing listed here proves absolutely that sugars drive cancer or that a ketogenic diet will prevent cancer, but taken together, the articles do paint a picture.
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:15 AM   #56
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Safe? In what way?
A book by Paul Jaminet titled, The Perfect health Diet, argues that rigid low carb diets that treat all carbs the same overreach. His conclusions (once again, backed up by lots of studies ) is that some starches (examples being potates - preferably boiled, not roasted - and rice) do not have a dramatic effect on blood sugar and are helpful in moderate amounts. I found the book pretty compelling, but I found books that argue that virtually all carbs are bad to be pretty compelling too. that is why I experiment with myself.

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And speaking of Sugar, here's an interesting thought:

Fat Head » Sugars and Cancer (dont cause cancer)
My conclusion that sugar is bad doesn't have to do with cancer, just insulin and weight.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #57
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:58 AM   #58
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Safe? In what way?
N=1. If he can eat some potatoes and rice without negative effects on health who are we to argue?

This is not religion, it informed individuals doing what is best for them.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:16 AM   #59
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Everything in moderation. I try not to eat too much of a particular meat though I favor chicken and fish most of the time.
The question I always struggle with is what's moderation? If we go by US standards, the average is something like 100+ KG meat/year (I think about 50% red meat). So maybe if we cut back by a third we be fine at 60-70KG of meat/year.

On the other hand Japan is about half that -- roughly 45 kg of meat/year (and probably a big chunk is fish/seafood). So if we wanted to go in moderation by Japanese standards we might be 30kg meat/year.

And then there are graphs like the following (from Oncogene - Diet and cancer prevention ) which suggests that various cancer risks keep decreasing all the way to zero meat consumption. (this was from an older study where japan is only at ~14kg/meat/year)
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File Type: gif 1207716f2.gif (14.0 KB, 4 views)
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #60
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I don't want to beat a dead horse but I know a lot of people were concerned about this recent study purporting to show the dangers of eating read meat because of the carnitine it contains.

If that includes you, you might feel a bit of skepticism after looking at another recent study that coincidentally came out shortly after the first.

New Mayo Clinic Meta-Analysis: Carnitine Improves Outcomes in Heart Attack Patients

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... a new meta-analysis of the research on carnitine and heart health was published by researchers from Mayo Clinic. This large systematic review provides strong evidence for carnitine's benefits in heart health.
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