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Old 02-12-2015, 05:16 PM   #41
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Frankly, given all the confusing and sometimes conflicting and contradictory nutrition studies we see, I continue to swear by "all things in moderation".
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by RonBoyd View Post
Am I coming on too strong?

Well let me add this then:

7 Common Calorie Myths We Should All Stop Believing
and
9 More Calorie Myths We Should All Stop Believing

Oh! I thought you were waving a Red Flag. Bacon! Yum!
From the first article you quoted:
"Calories absolutely count. And if someone has lost weight, they have necessarily expended more calories than they consumed."

Your original statement was:
"Calories don't count."
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jimbee View Post
From the first article you quoted:
"Calories absolutely count. And if someone has lost weight, they have necessarily expended more calories than they consumed."

Your original statement was:
"Calories don't count."
<smile> That's why this is so much fun.

This is somewhat out of context. I was referring to the blanket statement about counting calories. As long as you are eating the "right" calories, counting them is a waste of time.

In any event, I agree; an excess of calories is no way to lose weight.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:23 PM   #44
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Frankly, given all the confusing and sometimes conflicting and contradictory nutrition studies we see, I continue to swear by "all things in moderation".
But you have to jazz it up with a cool name, a book and a website. Something like "The Aristotelian Diet".
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Old 02-12-2015, 09:38 PM   #45
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Calories-in/calories-out reminds me of a guy who walks into a restaurant that is packed with people and has a 90 minute wait for a table. "Why are there so many people in here?",he asks. The answer is "because more people have entered than left in the last hour."

Well...... Duh!!!!!!! True, but not very useful.

What we really need to know is why so many people are seeking out this restaurant. A more meaningful answer might be, "it's their 10 year anniversary and every item on the menu is half price." Now you have some useful information.
That is one point that I agree with, but there are more...

My problems with "calories in calories out" are:

1) Two diets, both the same number of calories, one with high glycemic foods, one with low glycemic foods. I think most folks realize that high glycemic diets will generate stronger appetite urges. So same calories, but not the same effect on appetite. In order for people on both diets to generate the same "calories out" the high glycemic group is going to need a hell of a lot more willpower. And we know what will happen...the high GI group will add calories in or reduce calories out from the force of appetite.

2) Genetically identical mice, same food, same number of calories in. One group of mice has one set of gut microbiota introduced, the other group has a different set of microbiota introduced. One group of mice gets obese, the other group stays normal weight. Same food in, they all just sat around the cage (same calories out). How would one account for the obesity if a calorie was a calorie?
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:15 AM   #46
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1) Two diets, both the same number of calories, one with high glycemic foods, one with low glycemic foods. I think most folks realize that high glycemic diets will generate stronger appetite urges. So same calories, but not the same effect on appetite. In order for people on both diets to generate the same "calories out" the high glycemic group is going to need a hell of a lot more willpower. And we know what will happen...the high GI group will add calories in or reduce calories out from the force of appetite.
I'm not sure that most folks do realize that high glycemic diets will generate stronger appetite urges. This is because that is an over-generalization. Actually, I doubt that most people even know about high and low glycemic.

I agree that this may be the case for some people. But, it isn't that simple. Here is an article that basically says it isn't that simple:

Is glycemic index of food a feasible predictor of appetite, hunger, and satiety?

There is a lot of controversy about how useful glycemic index really is in helping people know what to eat.

Another point is that some people are more sensitive to carbs and they raise their blood sugar more than carbs raise the blood sugar of other people. Jenny Ruhl talks about this in her book:

Diet 101: The Truth About Low Carb Diets

She is not hostile to low carb and actually advocates low carb diets for many people. But, she points out that they really aren't necessary for everyone. Some people eat carbs and their blood sugar spikes up and then it plummets back down and they eat intense hunger pangs. For those people eating carbs, particularly refined carbs that are more likely to cause such a swing, may cause them to feel more hungry and then to overeat. If they go low carb, they may have fewer swings of blood sugar and don't get that intense hunger and might find it easier to lose weight.

On the other hand, for some people their blood sugar really doesn't go all that high and their body handles the carbs just fine. There is no big swing and no big hunger as a result of that swing. She points out that if carbs don't cause you large blood sugar swings and you don't get overly hungry from them, you may not have a particularly pressing reason to eat low carb. She points out that hunger pangs from blood sugar spikes isn't the only reason that people overeat. People with perfectly normal blood sugar can overeat for reasons that have nothing to do with carbs.

I think the important thing is to find out which group you belong in. (I don't recommend a lot of refined carbs for anyone though).
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:52 AM   #47
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Yep, agreed, we're all different to some degree, and I'm sure the impact of high glycemic foods is different between people. It's a complicated problem because GI is measured on one food at a time, but that's not the way we eat. The GI spike of a meal is blunted significantly by throwing in some fat, fiber and protien.

I couldn't tell who paid for that 2008 study in that Japanese journal that you found. Studies can be designed in a way to not produce a result (like that one), but since there's a lot of money floating around from grain producers, it's hard to know if an alternative designed study that might have shown a result was not done, or done and not published. We have a messed-up system where too many studies are funded by corporations who have an ax to grind. And the scientists that perform the studies only get grants if they tow the line. That's not to say I dismiss every study that's tained like that, it's just that one must back away and ask (if one has the expertise, which I don't), "Could this study have been constructed differently such that it might have shown a different result?"

I'd say, though, that if someone recommends more of one or less of the other macronutrient, they are implicitly stating that "a calorie is NOT a calorie". Right? If they all were the same, it wouldn't matter if they got 100 calories from white flour, whole wheat flour, or olive oil. I know if I ate the flour, I'd be clamoring for a Snickers bar in an hour and a half, and if I had the olive oil, I'd not even think about eating, much less be ravenous.
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:09 PM   #48
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I know if I ate the flour, I'd be clamoring for a Snickers bar in an hour and a half, and if I had the olive oil, I'd not even think about eating, much less be ravenous.
Me also, even though I don't think I am as sensitive to carbs as many people are. I remember reading about the food pyramid years ago in the 80's. It was quite clear from the article that carbs and even sugar were much less harmful than fat. I can't imagine how much harm this advice caused many people.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:41 PM   #49
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2) Genetically identical mice, same food, same number of calories in. One group of mice has one set of gut microbiota introduced, the other group has a different set of microbiota introduced. One group of mice gets obese, the other group stays normal weight.
I wonder if this means that someday, every neighborhood will have a Bob's Fecal Transplant Store.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:48 PM   #50
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I wonder if this means that someday, every neighborhood will have a Bob's Fecal Transplant Store.
Right next door to Tom's Rhinoplasty, I would imagine.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:58 PM   #51
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Some good reading on this topic here...
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Old 02-13-2015, 02:21 PM   #52
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Just want to chime in that this has been an interesting discussion. I have a passing knowledge of some of the debate. Still it is all very confusing. I guess I will trying the cut out sugar for two weeks, once I get rid of all of the obvious source in my house.
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Old 02-13-2015, 02:40 PM   #53
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Scientists! They say they want to help us, but what they really want to do is Take Over The World!

Attachment 21089
heh heh heh - nah. ER is way better.
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:52 PM   #54
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I'd say, though, that if someone recommends more of one or less of the other macronutrient, they are implicitly stating that "a calorie is NOT a calorie". Right? If they all were the same, it wouldn't matter if they got 100 calories from white flour, whole wheat flour, or olive oil. I know if I ate the flour, I'd be clamoring for a Snickers bar in an hour and a half, and if I had the olive oil, I'd not even think about eating, much less be ravenous.
I think it depends on the context. I've thought about this a lot. In my spare time, I have a weight loss blog since I've been working on weight loss (52 pounds gone, 9.4 left to go).

A calorie is a calorie (by and large) in terms of weight loss. If you eat fewer calories than you burn you will lose weight. Eat more and you gain.

If I eat 20g of carbs a day and I burn 1800 calories, will I lose weight? The answer to that is that it depends. If I eat 20g of carbs a day and eat 3000 calories, then I'm not losing weight. If I eat 20g of carbs a day and eat 1200 calories, then I'm losing weight.

If I eat 200g of carbs of day and I burn 1800 calories...it works out the same way.

Now it is possible -- and I think actually true -- that for many people if they eat 200g of carbs a day that they are hungrier and may be more likely to eat closer to 3000 calories a day than 1200 calories a day. I don't think that is true for everyone. Personally, my appetite doesn't vary with my carb intake (and I've recorded what I've eaten each and every day for over 500 days and I would have noticed if it did).

There is another context other than weight loss in which I might recommend one of more macronutrient than another and that is for reasons of health and nutrition apart from weight loss.

I tend to think it is more important thought to look at things like what kind of carbs, what kind of fat, and so on. Not all carbs are the same. Not all fats are the same.

For me, in checking my blood sugar, I find that refined carbs tend to make it rise much more than vegetables and more than whole grains. That doesn't mean that a calorie isn't a calorie in terms of weight loss. Some calories are better for you than others.
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Old 02-13-2015, 06:15 PM   #55
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Another interesting ramification of this is that they should now remove the cholesterol listing from the nutrition facts labels.
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Old 02-13-2015, 06:36 PM   #56
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And to add more confusion to the mix: What weight is one trying to lose anyway? One of the healthiest groups of individuals are also the "heaviest" -- Sumo Wrestlers.

There is a big difference between visceral fat an subcutaneous fat.

Google "waist to weight ratio vs body mass index," for instance.

or

Health Correlator: Waist-to-weight ratios in pictures: The John Stone transformation
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Dietary Cholesterol Concerns Reversed After 40 Years
Old 02-13-2015, 06:53 PM   #57
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Dietary Cholesterol Concerns Reversed After 40 Years

We don't eat isolated calories. We eat food that contains calories. The food has various effects on our body including hormones that are involved in managing our appetite and weight.

We would never put unleaded gas in a rocket headed to space even if it contained exactly the same amount of energy as rocket fuel. The rocket has different needs than my old jalopy.
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:28 PM   #58
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I wonder if this means that someday, every neighborhood will have a Bob's Fecal Transplant Store.
LOL! Not going to happen in the US since the FDA has classified poop as an "experimental drug", requiring special permission to use. The world is indeed coming to an end when crap is regulated
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Old 02-14-2015, 02:16 AM   #59
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And to add more confusion to the mix: What weight is one trying to lose anyway? One of the healthiest groups of individuals are also the "heaviest" -- Sumo Wrestlers.
Huh? Average sumo wrestler live 15 yeasr less than his non Sumo couterpart. What Is the Average Life Expectancy of a Sumo Wrestler? - Quora
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:27 PM   #60
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The only reason they changed the cholesterol eating is that they finally got exposed.
In 2012 the FDA told doctors to get their patents off statin because they cause 52% increase in diabetes and 100% increase in dementia [Alzheimer].
Then in 2014 time magazine cover story on the history of cholesterol scam which showed that the American Heart Association received 1.7 million dollars donation to promote Crisco over saturated fat. Also they had no scientific study to support their actions. The only thing they had was a fraudulent study done by Dr. Keys. They would never address people like the Inuit [Eskimos] living with a diet of 90% saturated fat and have the lowest rate of heart problems in the world.
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