Dizzy with fluorescent lights

[MRG]

I searched the forum and didn't find this topic. I was wondering if anyone here knows about this.
When I RE in May, I took over going to the grocery store for DW, it was a task she hated and I used to enjoy. Lately the grocery store has become my personal hell. Soon after I get in the place I get disoriented and become "dizzy", I've almost called 911 twice as I thought I was having a stroke. Every week it's horrible, I feel bad the rest of the day, I go off hours when the store is almost empty so I'm pretty sure it's not agoraphobia or panic.

My family Dr. asked do florescent lights bother you? I thought no, I spent 29 years under them at Megacorp. I thought surely anything that obvious I would had problems with. Of course for the last 20 years I had an office or cube with a window location, but I never noticed any issues. He's referred me to a neurologist, she asked the same question, got the same answer. They've done CT's and MRI's say my brain is normal(I know some will disagree).

She did help me with a severe cluster headache(aka suicide headache) that I've had for 3 1/2 years, so I'm feeling much better from that. She's also referred me out to a balance center, there doing 4 hours of testing at the end of the month.

I did Google florescent lights and dizziness, and came across this site:
https://vestibular.org/understanding-vestibular-disorder/symptoms

It describes 90%+ of my symptoms. Has anyone here dealt with these kinds of issues? Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
MRG

 

[GrayHare]

From what I understand some people are senstive to the flicker rate of illumination. This can happen with any light source that turns on and off rapidly, including computer displays. Changing the flicker rate of the lights (or refresh rate of a computer display) usually makes the problem go away. The lights at a different grocery store may flicker at a different rate, one that does not impact you.

 

[Midpack]

I don't know much about it, but do fluorescent lights everywhere bother you now, or just that grocery store?

It's rare, but I've seen fluorescent lights that seemed to be flickering and it did induce a bad reaction for me (though not as severe as you describe). I always assumed it was a tube that was about to quit altogether.

 

[W2R]

I don't know anything about it either, but following up on Midpack's post, I have an idea. Go to a different grocery store, butcher shop, or farmer's market. See if that helps! Maybe try a SuperWalmart; surely you would have noticed this before, if it normally happens to you at Wallie World.

It's nice to know that one's brain is normal! I had CTscans done of my brain when I fainted last September and hit my head, and I was surprised and pleased to find that (despite rumors to the contrary ) my brain is completely normal as well.

 

[bbbamI]

Until you find out what is going on, perhaps you could wear sunglasses in the store....that might help.

I always wear my sunglasses while shopping as the lights seem too bright to me.

 

[Meadbh]

Perhaps now that you are the official family shopper you are spending more time in the store than you formerly were. I agree with the advice to experiment with other stores, with sunglasses, etc. you might also ask the store manager what type of lighting they use and whether there have been other similar complaints. It's quite likely that your light sensitivity is related to your tendency to cluster headaches. Back in the day when I was in medical school (and later when I was a resident on the neurology team) I learnt that these were all part of the migraine spectrum. It 's probably still true.

 

[ERD50]

It could very well be that that store has the old style 'magnetic ballasts' in their fluorescent lights. These will flicker at 2x the line frequency, so 120 times per second here in the US. This can be very noticeable to some people.

The newer, electronic ballasts, run at up around 10,000 times per second, and this will not be perceptible as flicker (the phosphors in the tubes don't dim in that short of a time)

LEDBenchmark - Measuring Flicker

Look at the picture of the moving ruler in that link. You might get some idea by doing a simple test like that - the greater degree to which you can see individual ruler images, rather than just a blur would give some idea of the relative amount of flicker. Or maybe one of those little portable fans - if it 'strobes' under an old fluorescent light at home, that might be a good indicator (maybe paint the blades black and white).

A store with lots of natural light will reduce the flicker from the tubes, it will 'fill in' during the off times. I think another effect could be if the store has those black/white checkered floor tiles? Any pattern like that in the background might make this flicker more objectionable. The black/white receptors in our eyes are more sensitive to flicker also.

I've got some LED Christmas lights, and they don't do anything in these to reduce the flicker - I think each half of the string is half-wave rectified, so they are on for less than 50% of the cycle (until they reach a threshold voltage), so these really have a high degree of flicker. It is very noticeable if you move the lights around, they really 'strobe'.

Good luck!


-ERD50

 

[MRG]

Thanks everybody. I knew I'd get some good ideas. I'll try the sunglass, and hat idea. It can't hurt. I had tried a couple of different stores, but with that cluster, it's been hard to know how I feel(other than pain) for some time.

I'm very grateful the neurologist found a simple fix, I'd suffered for years. My Dr. really was at a loss on how to help me, his last suggestion was oxytocin. He's not a guy that pushes pills or easily prescribes control substances, he was at a loss on how to help. I declined his offer, I'd lived on Percocet for a couple of months, and I really don't consider that to be a life. I do believe the cause of the clusters may make me more susceptible to the lights.

I did do a test last time, after I was already experiencing the dizziness. Looking up at the lights (now I know what a moth feels like), revealed a mixture of blues, reds, grey(burnt out) and flickering bulbs. This helps explain why I never noticed issues a Megacorp. They managed a lot of office space, and had engineering folks to manage the facilities. Obviously if your bonus depends on improving power consumption, you would have the latest and greatest technology.

So I'll try either a super Wal-Mart, or higher end food chain, both are the same drive.

Thanks again,
MRG

It could very well be that that store has the old style 'magnetic ballasts' in their fluorescent lights. These will flicker at 2x the line frequency, so 120 times per second here in the US. This can be very noticeable to some people.

The newer, electronic ballasts, run at up around 10,000 times per second, and this will not be perceptible as flicker (the phosphors in the tubes don't dim in that short of a time)

LEDBenchmark - Measuring Flicker

Look at the picture of the moving ruler in that link. You might get some idea by doing a simple test like that - the greater degree to which you can see individual ruler images, rather than just a blur would give some idea of the relative amount of flicker. Or maybe one of those little portable fans - if it 'strobes' under an old fluorescent light at home, that might be a good indicator (maybe paint the blades black and white).

A store with lots of natural light will reduce the flicker from the tubes, it will 'fill in' during the off times. I think another effect could be if the store has those black/white checkered floor tiles? Any pattern like that in the background might make this flicker more objectionable. The black/white receptors in our eyes are more sensitive to flicker also.

I've got some LED Christmas lights, and they don't do anything in these to reduce the flicker - I think each half of the string is half-wave rectified, so they are on for less than 50% of the cycle (until they reach a threshold voltage), so these really have a high degree of flicker. It is very noticeable if you move the lights around, they really 'strobe'.

Good luck!


-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

Could it also be some change in what the store uses to clean? Or some new equipment or fixtures that might outgas or give off fumes? There are lots of things in daily use that can affect some people.

 

[IBWino]

It could very well be that that store has the old style 'magnetic ballasts' in their fluorescent lights. These will flicker at 2x the line frequency, so 120 times per second here in the US. This can be very noticeable to some people.

The newer, electronic ballasts, run at up around 10,000 times per second, and this will not be perceptible as flicker (the phosphors in the tubes don't dim in that short of a time)

LEDBenchmark - Measuring Flicker

Look at the picture of the moving ruler in that link. You might get some idea by doing a simple test like that - the greater degree to which you can see individual ruler images, rather than just a blur would give some idea of the relative amount of flicker. Or maybe one of those little portable fans - if it 'strobes' under an old fluorescent light at home, that might be a good indicator (maybe paint the blades black and white).

A store with lots of natural light will reduce the flicker from the tubes, it will 'fill in' during the off times. I think another effect could be if the store has those black/white checkered floor tiles? Any pattern like that in the background might make this flicker more objectionable. The black/white receptors in our eyes are more sensitive to flicker also.

I've got some LED Christmas lights, and they don't do anything in these to reduce the flicker - I think each half of the string is half-wave rectified, so they are on for less than 50% of the cycle (until they reach a threshold voltage), so these really have a high degree of flicker. It is very noticeable if you move the lights around, they really 'strobe'.

Good luck!


-ERD50

+1 regarding magnetic versus electronic ballasts. Although I don't get dizzy, I can easily detect the flicker of the older style florescent lights with magnetic ballasts.

 

[Helen]

I have Meniere's so I have frequented the menieres.org website quite a bit. Some of the people on that forum have mentioned having problems (dizziness, vertigo) when in stores.

Also, there is such a thing as silent migraines in which the symptoms present themselves as vertigo (MAV or Migraine Associated Vertigo).

Do you have any problems with your hearing, whooshing sounds, tinnitus, hearing loss?

I am sorry to hear you are having this problem.

 

[tinlizzy]

I have the same thing. I used to walk into a small elevator in an old bldg. and feel completely stunned and wonder if I might fall down. Weird and I never once suspected the lights and nothing terrible ever happened aside from the funny feelings. It was finally LAX that made me figure it out. I walked into LAX and could barely function. It felt as though my hearing was underwater and I could barely take a step. I couldn't speak at all. I found a discarded cart to hang onto and made my way outside. It was horrible and a stroke definitely crossed my mind. I knew it was the lights from that episode though.

 

[MRG]

I have Meniere's so I have frequented the menieres.org website quite a bit. Some of the people on that forum have mentioned having problems (dizziness, vertigo) when in stores.

Also, there is such a thing as silent migraines in which the symptoms present themselves as vertigo (MAV or Migraine Associated Vertigo).

Do you have any problems with your hearing, whooshing sounds, tinnitus, hearing loss?

I am sorry to hear you are having this problem.

Thank you. I've read a little about Meniere's and there are similarities. Also read a very small about, MAV it too could be related.
The biggest thing, that no DR has given more than cursory attention to is my ears. I have pressure in them when I feel bad(airplane ear that never pops). I've let both DRS know. I don't know I have hearing loss, the balance folks asked about my last hearing test(last century). I'll make an issue about needing to see an ENT expert. I am a person that worked for years in industrial settings, before hearing loss and the j*b were considered. So that possibility exists.

Its good(but sad) to know also that other folks experience similar issues.
Thanks all,

MRG

 

[ivinsfan]

Just a comment on your balance testing. My younger sister had this done several years ago for some vertigo issues. No problems were found, but she described the testing as the most unpleasant experience of her life. She felt blindsided by the entire episode. Hopefully you have a good idea of what is going to happen on test day.

 

[MRG]

Just a comment on your balance testing. My younger sister had this done several years ago for some vertigo issues. No problems were found, but she described the testing as the most unpleasant experience of her life. She felt blindsided by the entire episode. Hopefully you have a good idea of what is going to happen on test day.

Thanks, I asked they mentioned clamping my eyes open, watching violent scenes, all while listening to Beethoven.

They did give names of some of the common tests. I've reaearched and while they may seen unpleasant(not scary), at this point I don't have many choices.

Think I'm ok with the tests, if someone went in unprepared, I could see a bad experience. Thanks for the heads up.
MRG

 

[MRG]

Well 4 hours of testing, they say I have 'Visual Vertigo'. I was very impressed with both DRs I met with.
The first gentleman was easy to talk to, within 10 minutes he had ideas on what was wrong. He spent almost 2 hours with me, narrowing down where the problem was.

Then the audiology testing, not the most pleasant thing I've ever done. That was close to 2 hours as well. Both DRs sat with my comparing their results. The treatment is specialized PT. They both thought the first few sessions would make me feel worse before I get better.

Thanks to the group for all the great ideas. Both DRs agreed the flicker from florescent lights aggravated my perception of what was up, down, sideways, causing the feeling of dizziness and sicknesses.
MRG

 

[bubba]

Never heard of Visual Vertigo; hope your treatment isn't too strenuous. I'm slightly queasy just reading about this. The only time I've had issue with the strobe-like thing is driving while it's snowing pretty hard. Something about looking into that snow falling at that rate, etc. and I start to get very queasy and my hearing starts to go just as if I'm about to faint. When that happens, I have to look down at the pavement and not out into the distance (hope that makes sense).

A couple of times per year, I have episodes of dizziness so sudden and so severe that should I be away from home, I do not know what I would do. Last time it happened was last April (I think). I felt great, the weather was perfect, and I was busy doing chores. I sat down in a recliner to take a break and when I reclined that chair, the bottom fell out. Home alone and knew I had to make it to the bathroom, I literally crawled to get there. Eventually crawled back to the sofa with a small trash can as my companion. Finally fell asleep and slept for hours. When I woke up, the nausea and dizziness was gone, replaced by intense fatigue. Who knows - maybe it's the migraine vertigo mentioned above, although I don't think I've ever had a migraine headache (my son suffers from them occasionally).

Anyway, I sincerely hope your docs can solve this dilemma. Dizziness is one of the things that scares me to pieces as it is so crippling.

 

[Helen]

Last time it happened was last April (I think). I felt great, the weather was perfect, and I was busy doing chores. I sat down in a recliner to take a break and when I reclined that chair, the bottom fell out. Home alone and knew I had to make it to the bathroom, I literally crawled to get there. Eventually crawled back to the sofa with a small trash can as my companion. Finally fell asleep and slept for hours. When I woke up, the nausea and dizziness was gone, replaced by intense fatigue. Who knows - maybe it's the migraine vertigo mentioned above, although I don't think I've ever had a migraine headache (my son suffers from them occasionally).
QUOTE]

This does sound like Migraine Associated Vertigo. The key is the fatigue you experienced. I would go into vertigo at work and after the vertigo passed (it was typically an hour or so attack) I could go back to my desk and continue working. From the menieres.org website and googling MAV, one of the symptoms of MAV is the fatigue a person feels after having the vertigo attack.

What I also learned is that some migraines are "silent"; they don't include the sensation of a headache.

They never did figure out what was causing my Meniere's and after seeing numerous specialists for a decade I just quit going, all they were doing was testing me over and over but they never were able to determine a cause. The roughest years for me was when I was going into menopause. Also, stress and fatigue were my biggest triggers and retiring has really helped that. Since a few months after retiring a lot of the distortion has gone away and I can converse (even in a restaurant) without wearing hearing aids for the first time in many years.

 

[splitwdw]

Hope they find out what is causing the problem. There are so many things that can cause dizzy/lightheaded feeling. Medications, inner ear infection, migraines ( I get or got them almost every morning. Cured finally), eye problems, low blood pressure. Hope it's something simple like my migraine cure.

 

[ERD50]

.... The only time I've had issue with the strobe-like thing is driving while it's snowing pretty hard. Something about looking into that snow falling at that rate, etc. and I start to get very queasy and my hearing starts to go just as if I'm about to faint. When that happens, I have to look down at the pavement and not out into the distance (hope that makes sense). ....

Wow, I don't really have any specific dizziness problems, but that snow issue resonated with me. The problem is, the headlights are lighting up those snowflakes, the changing wind is making them drift around a bit, and then they 'change course' as they approach your windshield and flow with the currents around the car. But you don't have much in the way of perspective, so they seem to be all dancing around, almost at random.

It can make for a pretty disorienting environment, and I can see how some people could be really affected by that.

-ERD50

 

[MRG]

Thanks,

I've been learning a lot. Many folks are unaware of Visual Vertigo, the DR's. I saw explained not too many years ago they would have referred me out to a shrink, as it was thought this ailment was all in your head(it is). The old treatments were meclizine (OTC) and Valium, both help vertigo symptoms. In the past DR's really thought people with these type issues had panic attacks or other issues.

As it was explained to me, the Vestibular system is responsible for the feeling of balance in the inner ear. There are a couple of organs in there (Otolithic) in my case the tests indicate damage to the lower one in the left ear. The brain also counts on your eyes for input on what is occurring.

When the brain gets mixed signals from the vestibular system it asks the eyes for more input on what is going on. So in "visually stimulated" environments, such as a grocery store or other visually busy places(big box stores, action movies, crowds....) the brain sometimes can't rationalize all the input. Causes confusion, dizzy, nausea and other bizarre feelings (I feel intoxicated, not in a good way when this occurs).

I meet with a PT tomorrow that's trained in balance issues. I'm hopeful that it won't be too bad, but PT has never been easy for me.

Being dizzy really sucks, as mentioned there are many causes. My sister related a story that sounds much like your experience of crawling to the trash can, She was told it was low blood pressure. Eventfully with some meds she's not had symptoms in 30 years. You may want to check out a neurologist or ENT as that seems to be the path into the balance experts.
MRG

Never heard of Visual Vertigo; hope your treatment isn't too strenuous. I'm slightly queasy just reading about this. The only time I've had issue with the strobe-like thing is driving while it's snowing pretty hard. Something about looking into that snow falling at that rate, etc. and I start to get very queasy and my hearing starts to go just as if I'm about to faint. When that happens, I have to look down at the pavement and not out into the distance (hope that makes sense).

A couple of times per year, I have episodes of dizziness so sudden and so severe that should I be away from home, I do not know what I would do. Last time it happened was last April (I think). I felt great, the weather was perfect, and I was busy doing chores. I sat down in a recliner to take a break and when I reclined that chair, the bottom fell out. Home alone and knew I had to make it to the bathroom, I literally crawled to get there. Eventually crawled back to the sofa with a small trash can as my companion. Finally fell asleep and slept for hours. When I woke up, the nausea and dizziness was gone, replaced by intense fatigue. Who knows - maybe it's the migraine vertigo mentioned above, although I don't think I've ever had a migraine headache (my son suffers from them occasionally).

Anyway, I sincerely hope your docs can solve this dilemma. Dizziness is one of the things that scares me to pieces as it is so crippling.

 

[powerplay]

This has been an interesting thread. For many years I have been sensitive to fluorescent lighting and found it hard to read under that type of lighting. I always tried to have my workstation next to a window and to delamp the overhead fixtures directly above me. It always had to be with the agreement of people near me though as some people really want and need their overhead lighting. I always used an incandescent task light on my desk for reading. The situation improved over time with technology changes from magnetic ballasts to electronic ballasts. I could usually detect the flicker in the older type of fluorescent fixtures. My experience was clearly mild compared to what others have shared in this thread.
The IES has some information in their Lighting Handbook book.
http://www.ies.org/handbook/
I no longer have access to it and it is expensive to buy. One of the local libraries has an older copy so that may be an option for anyone who is interested.

A recent book I read goes into detail of one person's experience with vestibular disorders. She discusses her symptoms, difficulty getting a proper diagnosis, testing she went through, therapy used to treat various disorders, and surgery to correct one of the problems. There is no perfect solution other than learning to live with it and how to minimize symptoms. Finding Balance by Sue Hickey
Finding Balance: Sue Hickey: 9781936303144: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Dcharles]

Our Lions Club helps with a Service Dog facility and we adopted two of the cabins that clients, who have sight disabilities would live in for up to 6 weeks. We needed to remove all flourecsent light fixtures because even those with sight problems have issues with the constant 60 cycle flicker from flourecsent lights. This is an issue not well publicized to the general public. I worked as an Electrical Engineer for a utility company specializing in low cost lighting and did not know this until recently. The flickering lights can cause head aches and dizziness with some people who are legally blind! Interesting!

 

[F4mandolin]

These types of lights don't really bother me. But....I used to play a fair amount of indoor tennis (or even at night under lights) and I had to wear an old pair of prescription glasses. The fluorescent lights would fuzz up the tennis ball so I had trouble getting clear sight of the ball. Same with driving at night and had trouble reading signs.

 

[MRG]

Well after a full week of PT, as promised, my dizziness is worse. The DR. that diagnosed me, the audiooligist, and th PT all told me to expect to get worse for the first two weeks.

Last visit with PT he added a couple of new exercises to my routine. Also had me double up on the reps. He suggested using a metronome to help with timing. It does make it easier.

He's now got me standing on 4 folded towels to increase the difficulity of maintaining balance. Hopefully by next week things are a little less dizzy.
Thanks to all here for suggestions.
MRG