Doctors are more likely to misdiagnose patients who are jerks

[HadEnuff]

I practiced dentistry for 38 years. I always found it an extra challenge to do my best for the PITA patient. I never understood why a patient would want to create an adversarial relationship with their healthcare provider. It's hard enough to get a good result when everyone is rowing in the same direction.
At one point I got tired of putting up with the BS and would just call people out on it. That was OK for me, but not really helpful for the patient.
Later I came to a realization that they were often dealing with some fear. Fear of pain. Fear of being embarrassed. Often it was fear of spending money. If I could get them to get to the bottom of their fear, things would often improve. If not, they'd get tired of my efforts, and go somewhere else.

 

[kcowan]

I'm still looking for a doctor who isn't "practicing" anymore. At the rates they charge and the importance of the "service they perform", I want one who's "mastered" the science and isn't practicing it.

We had a mature doctor and were very pleased with him. Then he died of a massive heart attack at age 68. Since then, we have been shopping for medical services. After four years, we are starting to get back to where we were but not quite.

 

[kcowan]

I practiced dentistry for 38 years. <snip>
At one point I got tired of putting up with the BS and would just call people out on it.

Welcome to the world of today. Trying to understand irrational patient behaviour. The thing is that doctors get more credit for the psychological behaviour than their medical skills. But as long as the medical skills measure up, then they are bound to be successful.

 

[Dawg52]

I'll be looking for a new doctor on my next visit. Last Fall when I went in for my annual check up, I arrived at 8:00 a.m. and entered as the doors were opened for business. Same clinic I have been to for the last 20 years. Only 3 people ahead of me and I had to wait 3 hours before seeing the doc. Same thing happened the previous year. I asked why does it take so long to see him and he never replied. My previous doc retired 2 years ago and it never took longer than an hour to see him.

To sum it up......it's not always easy to be nice when you have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

 

[MichaelB]

Is it any surprise that diagnoses are missed in the jerk population?

Not a surprise at all, at least shouldn't be. Hard enough to diagnose as it is without being distracted by aggression or someone questions your credentials (from the article).

I think this is probably more difficult for a family doctor / GP, who is squeezed for time by the insurance companies and more likely to be seeing someone without enough background information or preliminary testing.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I have also read that women may misdiagnosed because they do not speak up enough (i.e., are reverse-jerky) and downplay the severity of their symptoms because they don't want to be a bother (I am sure many men are like this too). Sometimes their symptoms, especially heart-attack related, are not the same as men experience, which makes diagnosis more difficult too.

 

[Meadbh]

I have also read that women may misdiagnosed because they do not speak up enough (i.e., are reverse-jerky) and downplay the severity of their symptoms because they don't want to be a bother (I am sure many men are like this too). Sometimes their symptoms, especially heart-attack related, are not the same as men experience, which makes diagnosis more difficult too.

Medical education needs to acknowledge the variety of symptoms in the population in general, not just the hypothetical 70kg man (on whom standard adult drug doses are based).

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Doctors are trained to try to treat all patients with respect. However, when they show up with weapons and threaten to rape and stab you, threaten to sue you at the first encounter, demand 100% of your time despite the obvious fact that there are 20 other patients in the ICU, and call you a murderer for bringing up the topic of palliative care, you are likely to avoid them whenever possible, keep security within sight, and keep all conversations short and to the point. These are all true examples of jerks I encountered during my medical career. Is it any surprise that diagnoses are missed in the jerk population?

And here I thought that Canadians were nicer than Americans.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I have also read that women may misdiagnosed because they do not speak up enough (i.e., are reverse-jerky) and downplay the severity of their symptoms because they don't want to be a bother (I am sure many men are like this too). Sometimes their symptoms, especially heart-attack related, are not the same as men experience, which makes diagnosis more difficult too.

We have two woman friends who had different cancers who found it necessary to be very insistent to get diagnoses they agreed with (and accurate). They both found it necessary to go to more than one doctor to get the attention they needed. Both are a little more forthright than the average woman and I do not know how that affected the reception they got at their doctors before they got what they wanted, even though I am certain neither of them threatened murder.

I have no doubt that women's concerns are discounted especially by doctors. It does not appear to be a simply male thing either. My wife got more attention from her male OB/GYN for our second child than from the woman OB/GYN for our first.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I have always found that polite persistence was far more productive than belligerence when interacting with someone who deals with the public.

This is good policy with everyone (how would you like to be treated if someone were asking you for help with a problem?), but is especially important when dealing with gatekeepers. Something I learned in the army was, Never piss-off the company clerk.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I don't trust doctors, I told them to their faces, some killed my mom, misdiagnosed, perhaps. But my doctor is still nice to me, but I don't have any problem yet. So who knows. But I've told my kids not to expect miracles from them either. I'm saying this despite having nephews and nieces who are doctors.

Forgetting about diagnosis by TV commercials, we all need to be educated consumers of health care.

Yes, doctors can be wrong. I saw a TV documentary about a woman doctor practicing in a hospital team environment who was having serious health problems that eventually forced her to leave. No one, herself included, could diagnose the problem and her complaints were dismissed. By chance, having read some history and of George III's problems, it was obvious to me that it was porphyria, which it turned out to be. Obscure maladies like tropical and rare diseases get missed. Sometimes you must be your own diagnostician.

 

[redduck]

...By chance, having read some history and of George III's problems, it was obvious to me that it was porphyria, which it turned out to be...Obscure maladies like tropical and rare diseases get missed. Sometimes you must be your own diagnostician.

Thanks a lot, Ed. I just looked up "porphyria." Now I have one more disease to obsess about the next time I'm not feeling well.

 

[Fedup]

Forgetting about diagnosis by TV commercials, we all need to be educated consumers of health care.



Yes, doctors can be wrong. I saw a TV documentary about a woman doctor practicing in a hospital team environment who was having serious health problems that eventually forced her to leave. No one, herself included, could diagnose the problem and her complaints were dismissed. By chance, having read some history and of George III's problems, it was obvious to me that it was porphyria, which it turned out to be. Obscure maladies like tropical and rare diseases get missed. Sometimes you must be your own diagnostician.

Younger generation like my kids, millennials, think something slightly wrong and they go to the doctor. Nothing was fixed. For example, one of mine had severe allergies after she came back from a foodie trip from Florida that she couldn't breath, went to the best doctors, UCLA grads, they look up her nose, the procedure was code as a surgery and was charged $1000 and my kid had to pay $100. Nothing was solved. I told her not to go back, they wanted her to go back. Instead, she went to an acupuncture, get some herbal medicines and sure enough it did help. Now the problem is not 100 % gone but it's manageable. It turns out her friend went to treat allergies with western medicine and it didn't help either. Had my kid stayed the course with the UCLA doctors it would barely helped and cost tons of money through insurance.
I also told my kid to stay away from alcohol, she drank lots of cold alcoholic beverages in Florida, and the alcohol didn't help. So this is what I mean by not expecting miracles, you can't expect to abuse your body, in this case by drinking lots of alcohol and then go to doctors to treat allergies. Nobody would think there's a connection. But her acupuncturist said something about wet spleen and my kid's nose was slightly inflamed.
Some food we consume makes something worse and some better. So my kid is also taking turmeric to help with inflammation. The problem has subsided significantly.
I know my husband would laugh his head off if I told him maybe there is a connection between alcohol and allergies, but I treated his leg with turmeric and his doctor never did, x-rays and all that.
The fact is we own our own bodies, not the doctors. If I need surgery, go to the doctor, if I need antibiotics I go to my doctor, but in general I don't have a blind trust in doctors. Not all doctors are alike. Some are trust worthy, some are not.


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[Meadbh]

And here I thought that Canadians were nicer than Americans.

These experiences took place in several countries.

 

[Bestwifeever]

We have two woman friends who had different cancers who found it necessary to be very insistent to get diagnoses they agreed with (and accurate). They both found it necessary to go to more than one doctor to get the attention they needed. Both are a little more forthright than the average woman and I do not know how that affected the reception they got at their doctors before they got what they wanted, even though I am certain neither of them threatened murder.

I have no doubt that women's concerns are discounted especially by doctors. It does not appear to be a simply male thing either. My wife got more attention from her male OB/GYN for our second child than from the woman OB/GYN for our first.

Age of patient and/or doctor might come into it, too. DH (outgoing, not at all jerky but still assertive) had prostate issues (tmi, I know) and his older urologist said he would just have to live with frequent bathroom visits and worse, recurring infections as part of getting older--DH was in his early 60s. DH changed docs at that point and within two months had surgery that resolved all issues completely.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

These experiences took place in several countries.

Most notably the USA, I imagine.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Thanks a lot, Ed. I just looked up "porphyria." Now I have one more disease to obsess about the next time I'm not feeling well.

It is genetic, by the way. If your ancestors had it, then you can worry. If not, never mind.

 

[MRG]

Forgetting about diagnosis by TV commercials, we all need to be educated consumers of health care.

Yes, doctors can be wrong. I saw a TV documentary about a woman doctor practicing in a hospital team environment who was having serious health problems that eventually forced her to leave. No one, herself included, could diagnose the problem and her complaints were dismissed. By chance, having read some history and of George III's problems, it was obvious to me that it was porphyria, which it turned out to be. Obscure maladies like tropical and rare diseases get missed. Sometimes you must be your own diagnostician.

Yes my favorite manager(genuine nice guy) came back from South Africa with a bad fever his doc was clueless and never did get a diagnosis. Few years later he got very ill, hospitals and other specialists, nobody had a clue.

Finally another co-w*rker came up with the answer he had malaria! His first doc could have caught it the fever was a big clue but the US trained doc had never seen a case of malaria.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

...I know my husband would laugh his head off if I told him maybe there is a connection between alcohol and allergies, but I treated his leg with turmeric and his doctor never did, x-rays and all that.
The fact is we own our own bodies, not the doctors.

Agree. There is more to allergies than most people realize, but we are all learning.

It is well known that some people are allergic to sulfites in wine, for example. My sinuses stuff up after drinking red wine.

We are learning what to eat and what not to eat, and mostly eat less of everything.

I welcome information from any source but I am selective in application. I would never use acupuncture but my wife uses magnets (groan) and our daughter goes to a naturopath for her allergies fairly successfully.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Yes my favorite manager(genuine nice guy) came back from South Africa with a bad fever his doc was clueless and never did get a diagnosis. Few years later he got very ill, hospitals and other specialists, nobody had a clue.

Finally another co-w*rker came up with the answer he had malaria! His first doc could have caught it the fever was a big clue but the US trained doc had never seen a case of malaria.

If one works overseas, they should be aware of such things and seek out a knowledgeable sawbones.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

...So my kid is also taking turmeric to help with inflammation. The problem has subsided significantly.
I know my husband would laugh his head off if I told him maybe there is a connection between alcohol and allergies, but I treated his leg with turmeric and his doctor never did, x-rays and all that....

We take turmeric as well.

For more than one reason, I am sure, my family is all healthier than we have been for many years.

 

[Amethyst]

Someone I know, liked to brag about "telling off" doctors who dared to counsel her to lose weight (has >300 lbs on what should be a 120-lb frame) instead of just quietly refilling her numerous prescriptions for complications from Type 2 diabetes. That must be incredibly frustrating for doctors, who I'm sure would rather try to fix root causes than just throw chemicals at them.

 

[MRG]

If one works overseas, they should be aware of such things and seek out a knowledgeable sawbones.

True he was an infrequent visitor as many Megacorp travelers were. The corporate line was if you're not in a hot zone no worries(other than being robbed). After my first visit I refused to return but only because of personal safety. The malaria risk wasn't apparent until he contracted the disease while in "safe" Capetown.

 

[Fedup]

Agree. There is more to allergies than most people realize, but we are all learning.

It is well known that some people are allergic to sulfites in wine, for example. My sinuses stuff up after drinking red wine.

We are learning what to eat and what not to eat, and mostly eat less of everything.

I welcome information from any source but I am selective in application. I would never use acupuncture but my wife uses magnets (groan) and our daughter goes to a naturopath for her allergies fairly successfully.

I didn't grow up with acupuncture. My massage therapist suggested it. I tried an American guy who was trained with Japanese acupuncture, but he was not as skilled as my last acupuncturist. So it depends on the person, she is from China and has a medical degree as well. She has since retired but helped me tremendously with back pain. And acupuncture must have boosted my immune system as a side effect. I rarely got sick in the last 10-12 years, while I was not the same when I was much younger.
As far as turmeric, a friend at work told me her mom was taking it, so I thought I gave my husband some everyday. Sure enough it healed after 3 months and he was able to run everyday. He was not able to do that before, He kept injured his heel when he ran. He is a runner all his life, but when you are young, you don't get these problem, it became a problem when he got older.


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[CountryGal]

Another consideration I haven't seen mentioned here. Most doctors MUST follow the "standard of care". So if you have condition X, they must prescribe treatment Y or test Z to go with it. There isn't much individualization of health care. It may not matter that treatment Y is useless, they will be penalized for not following it.

We need to be informed patients in order to survive and thrive. Sadly the doctors are pretty much under the control of the insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry.