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Old 07-05-2015, 12:05 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
The bolded part - 'but also 5-6 hours of not sitting in a chair' - is something I've noticed from you from time to time. Think about it, the alternative to one thing is not simply the extreme opposite. There are alternatives to bike riding that are not 'sitting on the couch'. You could find a safer alternative activity - it isn't all or nothing.

-ERD50
Yes, I agree, but here's the thing: There is something uniquely non-boring about a long bike ride. I haven't found other things that I can do for six hours without it becoming tedious, other than reading a book or surfing the internet.

I've decided it's due to the rapidly changing scenery, and the feeling I call "eating up the miles."

Hiking can come a little close, but perhaps the scenery doesn't change fast enough.

Playing a game such as tennis would come close, but six hours?

As an extreme example, if I use the stationary bike for ten minutes I'm bored out of my skull. I don't get bored on a long bike ride, even if it isn't all fun.

A compromise I've tried is driving the bike to a safer location, but that's less practical (it's more fun to get on the bike and go).


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Old 07-05-2015, 12:23 PM   #42
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T-Al, it looks like you only rode 57 miles during the entire month preceding your recent 50 miler, whereas last year, you rode over 300 miles during June. If you didn't feel discomfort during the final miles of your long rides a year ago, I suspect your recent discomfort was more a matter of simply being in worse cycling shape this year when you went for a 50 mile ride.
Yes, definitely true, but I did usually feel "beat up" after those rides, also.

I've done a ton of experimenting (as those who know me would expect). For a while, here's what I kept track of for each ride:

Sleep:
Last Ride + [days since last ride]
Strength + [days since last strength training]
Weather:
Exertion:
Breakfast:
Lunch:
Eaten During Ride:
How I felt at start:
How I felt at end:
How I felt in evening:

It was hard to draw conclusions, but the most important things were

1. Just the right exertion. Ride too slowly, and it's harder. Someone pointed out that slower riding = more pressure on saddle = more discomfort = more perceived fatigue.

2. Electrolyte tablets helped.

3. Warm weather with sunshine made me feel less tired during the ride, at least.

But for this thread, the point is that (1) I often felt beat up, (2) there was a good bit of variation, and (3) there wasn't a clear factor.
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Old 07-05-2015, 01:25 PM   #43
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Yes, I agree, but here's the thing: There is something uniquely non-boring about a long bike ride. I haven't found other things that I can do for six hours without it becoming tedious, other than reading a book or surfing the internet. ...
OK, but is six hours really necessary to maintain good health?

You might do it because you enjoy it, but I'd question whether that level of activity is gaining you anything (or maybe even hurting?) over something more moderate.

I've noticed among the older people I come into contact with - many of them were extremely inactive, I mean they didn't do anything other than sit around plus general household activity for many years. I suspect they have aches and pains and generally lower mobility than someone who took better care of themselves, but I can't say it is a striking difference, and I'd bet just moderate activity would have helped them a lot.

After that, I think it is really diminishing returns, and maybe even negative.

Heck, look at Hawkings - that guy hasn't moved in decades (outside of whatever PT he gets, but that's not the same as moving your muscles yourself) , and his heart is still pumping blood to his brain.

-ERD50
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Old 07-05-2015, 01:58 PM   #44
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OK, but is six hours really necessary to maintain good health?

You might do it because you enjoy it, but I'd question whether that level of activity is gaining you anything (or maybe even hurting?) over something more moderate.
Right, and that's exactly the question I was asking in the OP. I'm also questioning it.

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I've noticed among the older people I come into contact with - many of them were extremely inactive, I mean they didn't do anything other than sit around plus general household activity for many years. I suspect they have aches and pains and generally lower mobility ...
I wonder this same thing also.

This doesn't show causation, and it's for obesity rather than inactivity, but it's relevant:

Obese People Have More Pain, Study Finds | Excess Fat & Inflammation | Causes of Pain & The Human Body
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Old 07-05-2015, 02:05 PM   #45
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The Exercise Myth.

The exercise myth: excessive exercise can harm your health! | ENCOGNITIVE.COM

I'm not sure but I think I got this link from this very forum some years ago.

ERD50 hit it. Exercise causes damage, immobility, loss of quality of life etc, and even death. When done the way people normally conceive of it. ie Go out and get some exercise, lift weights, ride a jillion miles on a bike, run marathons of any length.

Everyone I have ever known or heard of who lived (and attributed health benefits to it) an active life with daily/near daily exercise is busted and wasted, live with pain, or have had hips, knees, etc replaced. Some as early as their 30's. The only people I have heard of who are not in that state are some people on this forum and certain other exercise/health nut forums. All we have is their word.

People, like everything else in nature, work best conserving energy. All the stories about how exercise prevents this disease or that condition are bs. You can say "Well this study says this or that study says such and such" and all it means is That study says a thing. " Studies show..." is not reality. Not even anecdotal evidence. The only valid idea there is that that study did indeed say that thing

One exercise guru I saw on a talk show back in the 70's when everybody was pushing the "aerobics out the ass" programs had the most sane thing to say that I have ever heard of. When asked if it was true that exercise can prevent diseases etc she said: "Exercise can't really add years to your life but it can add life to your years. I can say the same about booze and cigarettes too, but at least she was being honest. Of course by adding life to your years you can be building scar tissue in your heart and shortening your years. But if you like getting that much exercise I guess that means "LIFE" to you. Oldtimers running the Senior Ironman course are not healthy because they run. They are simply healthy enough in old age to run. Statistical outliers. Not normal people who tried harder.
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Old 07-05-2015, 02:44 PM   #46
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Yep.....definitely sounds like a "take SS at 62 or 70" type of topic. Everybody has an answer they like......there is no right answer (but for the one they think is right).
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Does Really Tough Exercise Make You Feel Younger?
Old 07-05-2015, 03:07 PM   #47
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Does Really Tough Exercise Make You Feel Younger?

The book "Body by Science" makes the point that the law of diminishing returns is also true for exercise. If you don't do that extra 30 minutes of working out you lose extra benefit, but not very much.
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Old 07-05-2015, 03:11 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I've noticed among the older people I come into contact with - many of them were extremely inactive, I mean they didn't do anything other than sit around plus general household activity for many years. I suspect they have aches and pains and generally lower mobility than someone who took better care of themselves, but I can't say it is a striking difference, and I'd bet just moderate activity would have helped them a lot.
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Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
I wonder this same thing also.

This doesn't show causation, and it's for obesity rather than inactivity, but it's relevant:
One comment on this. Some seniors need to relocate to assisted living or nursing homes because they are physically unable to continue living at home after an injury. One reason is their inability to rehabilitate. Physical therapy often requires the same mental discipline needed for strenuous exercise.

This may describe a small number of people, but I think as we approach our golden years we will benefit two ways from strenuous physical activity - less likely to suffer an accident, and if we do, more likely to recover and return home quickly.
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:41 PM   #49
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Yep.....definitely sounds like a "take SS at 62 or 70" type of topic. Everybody has an answer they like......there is no right answer (but for the one they think is right).
+1

Al,

I also like to "play" to exhaustion, whether that is soccer, tennis, cycling or hiking. These days it is only hiking and cycling that I do for long periods. The stuff I do in the gym with weights or HIIT on an elliptical trainer is short term and I recover quickly, and I can't say I enjoy it.

However, I have dialed back what I do as I aged. If something takes 2 days to recover from then I stop doing it so intensely, or drop it altogether as I had to do with soccer many years ago and, more recently, tennis.

When I met with the cardiologist in March after my visit to the ER with A-Fib he told me that he actually sees a surprising number of older folks who are seriously fit athletes get A-Fib. I am not a seriously fit athlete but I know a guy who was up until a couple of years ago when he developed heart problems at age 71. I had no idea what his heart problem is but when I talked to him at the gym shortly after my visit to the doc and during the tests I was undergoing he told me that he used to run marathons and do Iron Man contests all the time. Then he got A-Fib so bad he nearly died one of the times they tried to do a reversion and for the last couple of years he has been taking a battery of drugs plus had a pace-maker fitted. When they did the tests on him the first time he presented with A-Fib they found old scarring on his heart probably caused by one or more of these extreme workouts.

As a soccer ref in my early forties one of my fellow refs, and a friend at work, who was in his late forties was, I thought, fitter than I because when weekend tournaments came along I could only manage 3 U-16 boys games whereas he would manage at least 4 games, until he collapsed with a heart attack and needed by-pass surgery. (he was super thin as well, and qualified to do professional games which required passing an annual fitness test).

Anecdotal I know, but you need to listen to your body.
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Old 07-05-2015, 05:59 PM   #50
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Everyone I have ever known or heard of who lived (and attributed health benefits to it) an active life with daily/near daily exercise is busted and wasted, live with pain, or have had hips, knees, etc replaced. Some as early as their 30's. The only people I have heard of who are not in that state are some people on this forum and certain other exercise/health nut forums. All we have is their word.
Not sure what the point is you're trying to make. Are you saying all exercise of any kind is ultimately bad for you or just excessive exercise? Daily exercise (walking, hiking, cycling, light weights) doesn't equate to excessive exercise in my book. Sure some take it to an extreme and I would agree it's not good for your body but that's a very small percentage of the general population. The people I know that don't do any type of exercise and live a 'couch potato' life style are mostly obese, diabetic, have difficulty just getting up from the sofa, and are out of breath walking anything more than 100'.
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Old 07-05-2015, 06:32 PM   #51
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The Exercise Myth.

The exercise myth: excessive exercise can harm your health! | ENCOGNITIVE.COM

I'm not sure but I think I got this link from this very forum some years ago.
Yes, you did get the link from this very forum and I think you are the one that linked it, twice. (here, here).
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Old 07-05-2015, 06:43 PM   #52
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Not sure what the point is you're trying to make. Are you saying all exercise of any kind is ultimately bad for you or just excessive exercise? Daily exercise (walking, hiking, cycling, light weights) doesn't equate to excessive exercise in my book. Sure some take it to an extreme and I would agree it's not good for your body but that's a very small percentage of the general population. The people I know that don't do any type of exercise and live a 'couch potato' life style are mostly obese, diabetic, have difficulty just getting up from the sofa, and are out of breath walking anything more than 100'.
Quote:
Are you saying all exercise of any kind is ultimately bad for you or just excessive exercise?
excessive exercise is bad.

Quote:
Daily exercise (walking, hiking, cycling, light weights) doesn't equate to excessive exercise in my book.
Nor in mine

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The people I know that don't do any type of exercise and live a 'couch potato' life style are mostly obese, diabetic, have difficulty just getting up from the sofa, and are out of breath walking anything more than 100'
What do you mean by couch potato? there are almost no true couch potatoes. In the link I slapped up the doctor observes even so called inactive people have things to do in the course of a day and therefor move about.

Or do you mean people who simply do not engage in a regular exercise or "workout" program? I would not call them couch potatoes.

Personally I have known lots of people who do not "exercise" and have no problems at all. No weight, diabetes, blood pressure problems OR joint pain.
I also know the type you are referring to.

As far as excessive exercise goes I have done that as if every pushup was adding 5 minutes to my life. Run a bike with my heart rate at 180+ for hours at a time. And not at age 20. In my 50s. I was also a vegetarian for many years. As far as I am concerned both are like smoking 5 packs a day on top of a glue sniffing habit

Since cutting back I am aging in reverse.

Another observation: People who spend their lives working physical labor type jobs (ie lots of exercise) are physically eff'ed up way earlier in life than higher paid hot house orchids who wear neckties and don't have to do "that stuff". They also die sooner
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:02 PM   #53
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Run a bike with my heart rate at 180+ for hours at a time. And not at age 20. In my 50s.
Got it, I now see where you're coming from.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:21 PM   #54
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Got it, I now see where you're coming from.
The good part was I never did have that heart attack the doctor kept saying I was going to have any minute 20 years ago.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:47 PM   #55
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I am pretty sure we will all go back to what we were doing prior to reading this thread. Just for fun, here are a few quotes from a July 1 systematic review (meta-analysis) of 160 clinical trials of the cardiometabolic affects of exercise done at Brown University. For the really curious, there is a link to the full study in the first paragraph.

Quote:
A review of 160 studies finds that the benefits of exercise are strong but aren't the same for everyone, and may work through a variety of biological intermediaries
Quote:
“Based on our findings, exercise interventions are not universally effective across different intermediate outcomes and subgroups of participants,” said corresponding author Dr. Simin Liu, a Brown professor of epidemiology and of medicine. “Even though exercise may benefit most people under most circumstances, it does not mean that the same exercise program or therapy should be prescribed to everyone.”
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A key implication from the findings may be that while exercise appears to affect total cholesterol, lowering “bad” LDL cholesterol for at least some people and raising “good” HDL for most, “the proportion of CVD risk that could have been reduced by exercise via effects on total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol is much lower than what has been observed previously.” Instead, the researchers note, some of the significant benefits of exercise appear to lie in reducing insulin resistance and inflammation based on how those biomarkers performed in the studies.
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2015/07/cardio
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:49 PM   #56
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+1



When I met with the cardiologist in March after my visit to the ER with A-Fib he told me that he actually sees a surprising number of older folks who are seriously fit athletes get A-Fib.
Yep, my dentist developed A-Fib a few years ago, at age 63. The guy is obsessed with biking, and spends (or spent) virtually all his free time either training for an upcoming bike race, or actually racing. He's been doing this basically his whole life, and thought he was extremely fit (his pulse rate was/is in the low 40s). His cardiologist basically told him that it's very likely that the extreme biking for all those years led to the heart problems he now has. Again, this is anecdotal, but something to think about.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:30 AM   #57
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Yes, definitely true, but I did usually feel "beat up" after those rides, also.

1. Just the right exertion. Ride too slowly, and it's harder. Someone pointed out that slower riding = more pressure on saddle = more discomfort = more perceived fatigue.

2. Electrolyte tablets helped.

3. Warm weather with sunshine made me feel less tired during the ride, at least.

But for this thread, the point is that (1) I often felt beat up, (2) there was a good bit of variation, and (3) there wasn't a clear factor.
Al,
Some of my own experiences/observations:
1. It looks like you are pretty consistently riding at about 12 mph, a decent clip depending on conditions.
2. Electrolytes - For short rides, I skip them, but longer rides (25-100) I use Gatorade during the ride and roughly 1 Endurolyte tablet per 25 miles. My father had disorientation issues after he rode one time that was most likely caused by diminished electrolytes in his system. He now swears by them and I concur.
3. Unfortunately we cannot control the weather.
4. Before longer rides I make sure to eat a good breakfast. I bonked after a fast 46 mile ride when I failed to eat breakfast (learned my lesson).
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:03 PM   #58
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I once read an article that stated this sage advice.....
If you are running more than 3 miles a day....you aren't doing it for your health. You have other reasons (racing....eat like a pig etc etc).


I have always liked that.....too bad I couldn't follow it.

I exercise too much, drink too much, eat too much, eat junk food.....

2 operations on each knee for patella tendonitis......calf/achilles surgery.....minor tears in my hips.....and you know what I loved every minute of it....I would have a hard time not doing it again
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:58 PM   #59
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On the topic of really tough exercise, I've been following Scott Jurek's quest to achieve the fastest known time for running the Appalachian Trail. Although he is an ultra runner, he needs to run an ultra marathon daily, every day, for nearly six weeks to beat the record. Judging by what I've read, he is taking a physical beating. IMO, this really falls in the category of too much exercise.

Will Scott Jurek Break the Appalachian Trail Record? Maybe. | Outside Online
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Old 08-13-2015, 04:25 PM   #60
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