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Old 08-31-2011, 03:10 PM   #21
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I've thought about that, because that is what most people, including dedicated low-carbers, think. That is, fat is OK as long as you keep the carbs very low.

However, as you say, there are no studies on that, and it would be very hard to research.

I suspect that it's just an attempt to reconcile the latest work with our totally-ingrained attitudes that fat is bad. That is, "Fat has to be bad for us, but maybe it's OK if you don't eat any carbs." Similar to "Fat has to be bad for us, but maybe it's OK if it's polyunsaturated fat." and "Carbs have to be good for us, but maybe it's only the refined carbs that are bad."

But I think that any fat you eat will probably mean less carbs that you eat, and that's a good thing.
That is so true. The more fat you eat, the more full you get, the less carb you want to consume...

Having said that, what I don't understand is some areas in Japan where white rice is liberally consumed(eg. Okinawa), they tend to enjoy longivity (I believe their diet is higher in fat than the mainland diet, but still by American standards, probably fairly low fat, and they consume much less dairy than Americans.).

I'm sure there are a lot of other variables besides diet that comes into play (type of water they drink, exercise, etc, etc), but the bottom line is I do not understand why they eat high carb/low fat and live long, while tons of people who eat high carb/high fat do not do as well.

I am actually on the low carb camp bceause I feel better on it (no highs and lows), but I don't know if it will make me live longer..

Why do some people get to live so long while eating tons of white rice?
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:19 PM   #22
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Why do some people get to live so long while eating tons of white rice?
To circle around back toward the thread topic, that is no great mystery, if you follow along in the direction of Gupta's thinking. Rice is vegetable, and it's not oily.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:40 PM   #23
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To circle around back toward the thread topic, that is no great mystery, if you follow along in the direction of Gupta's thinking. Rice is vegetable, and it's not oily.
If Gupta's thinking is correct, then, how come someone like Gary Taubes eating only protein/fat (with minimal carbs like green veggies) get fabulous blood panel with very vey low heart disease markers?
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:51 PM   #24
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If Gupta's thinking is correct, then, how come someone like Gary Taubes eating only protein/fat (with minimal carbs like green veggies) get fabulous blood panel with very vey low heart disease markers?
Beats me. I just want all theories to be adequately considered.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:33 PM   #25
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Having said that, what I don't understand is some areas in Japan where white rice is liberally consumed(eg. Okinawa), they tend to enjoy longevity (I believe their diet is higher in fat than the mainland diet, but still by American standards, probably fairly low fat, and they consume much less dairy than Americans.).
Also their obesity rate is lower. I'm not sure why. Some say it's because they eat much less sugar, and they walk more (as part of their daily routines). But I'd sure expect that eating a lot of white rice would be a problem.
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:20 PM   #26
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The Blue Zone by Dan Buettner attributes their longevity to the peaceful nature of their lifestyle, as well as the fact that so much walking is built into it.

Also to the lack of processed foods rather than to the presence of white rice.

He notes that the younger generation in Okinawa that is losing the above, health-wise is starting to look more like Americans.
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:20 PM   #27
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Perhaps the Japanese eat lots of fish...
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:47 PM   #28
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My experience

2004 201 lbs, high cholesterol, pre-diabetic, at 59.
Found Protein Power (Eades)The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.

Now 175 lbs (66 yo), work out at the "Y" 3 days a week: lifting heavy-one set of muscles/week. Swim 40 minutes. Chief motivator is the folks in cardiac rehab. that are there at the same time. One guy rides stationary bike for over one hour. Changes shirt 3 times! Pretty worthless! I am in and out of the weight room in 10 minutes.

Advice (for what it's worth - do your own research!)

Vitamin D3, up to 10,000 iu/day. Get your levels checked spring and fall.
Prevents many aging issues (heart disease, cancer, immune system issues, depression---wow! is there anything it can't do?)
GrassrootsHealth | Vitamin D Action - GrassrootsHealth | Vitamin D Action

Fish, fish oil, Co-Q10, Magnesium, potassium, lots of water, etc. Read Protein Power if you are going to strive to lose weight. Your electrolytes can get screwed up from H2O loss.



Cut out wheat! It has changed and "those aren't your grandma's muffins"
The Heart Scan Blog | Measure, track, and reduce coronary atherosclerotic plaque

Strive for balance. My hero is Art De Vaney (just turned 74 the other day)
About Us - Arthur De Vany Members

The lipid hypothysis is a bunch of cr*p. I eat eggs, "artery clogging" sat. fat, meat, cook with coconut oil and butter (not olive oil for high heat - you can research why) Satiety is easy. Never hungry, even with 18 hour intermittent fasting. I work out fasted.

"Healthy whole grains:" ain't healthy!

Rant complete.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:11 PM   #30
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I'm torn between the extreme vegetarian position and the paleo position.

On the one hand, the high-powered paleo athletes seem healthier and more energetic than the thin vegetarians. However, the most extreme cases of longevity all seem to follow the near-meatless and high low-intensity (functional) exercise plan.

Part of this could simply be that the high-power paleo athlete lifestyle IS better, but can't be sustained beyond say 80 - which leaves the placid, easygoing vegetarians to plod on to past their 100 year mark while the paleo founder, being unable to take on a new lifestyle at 80.
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Old 09-02-2011, 02:42 PM   #31
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I'm torn between the extreme vegetarian position and the paleo position.

On the one hand, the high-powered paleo athletes seem healthier and more energetic than the thin vegetarians. However, the most extreme cases of longevity all seem to follow the near-meatless and high low-intensity (functional) exercise plan.

Part of this could simply be that the high-power paleo athlete lifestyle IS better, but can't be sustained beyond say 80 - which leaves the placid, easygoing vegetarians to plod on to past their 100 year mark while the paleo founder, being unable to take on a new lifestyle at 80.
That is exactly my sentiment too. I compare the paleo lifestyle with something like Okinawa diet (they are not vegetarian though - they eat meat including fatty pork, but the amount of meat they eat is much smaller than the average meat eating American's.) and thinking eatilng like Okinawans (with low and slow exercise, easy going mood, etc) makes you live longer while high protein / high fat diet (with strength training) makes you fit, but makes you burn out quicker.

By this assumption, since I like protein too much, even if I exercised the right way, I won't live to be 100 yrs old.... Oh well.
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Old 09-02-2011, 03:04 PM   #32
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And adding more confusion to the longevity topic, some people think fermented veggies or dairy is the key to longevity. I can't remember exactly which country, but some region in Eastern Europe enjoy longivity and they eat a lot of fermented dairy (not pasterized and not homeginized - it may even be raw dairy). As you know, fermented anything (as long as not rotton) have live enzymes and beneficial bacteria.
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Old 09-02-2011, 03:13 PM   #33
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Asome people think fermented veggies or dairy is the key to longivity.
Bull pucky.

The key to longevity is not dying...
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Old 09-02-2011, 03:20 PM   #34
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Also their obesity rate is lower. I'm not sure why. Some say it's because they eat much less sugar, and they walk more (as part of their daily routines). But I'd sure expect that eating a lot of white rice would be a problem.
You've answered your own question. They don't eat a lot of white rice. They don't eat a lot of anything. In amongst all the angst over fast carbs and slow carbs and good fats and red meat and all the other stuff, the fact is that calorie restricted (within reason) diets seem to be the most effective at reducing heart disease and related illnesses, as well as increasing longevity.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:05 PM   #35
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So, it seems, no one has even looked to comment on this link. I stopped looking at this site awhile ago after quite some time of participation b/c of so much pontification not based upon reference to credible sources.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:43 PM   #36
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You've answered your own question. They don't eat a lot of white rice. They don't eat a lot of anything. In amongst all the angst over fast carbs and slow carbs and good fats and red meat and all the other stuff, the fact is that calorie restricted (within reason) diets seem to be the most effective at reducing heart disease and related illnesses, as well as increasing longevity.
As far as Okinawans are concerned, I think they eat a lot of white rice, maybe not as much as the mainland people (since Okinawans eat more yam potatoes and such), but by American standards, more white rice, for sure - a little over a cup each meal. They even eat white wheat noodles (they have their own version of "ramen", a little different from the mainland "ramen") and they are known for fatty pork (like pork belly) (the other white meat??) as a protein source as well as fish.

They are also known for their black sugar. (I had a roommate in college who was from Okinawa and she would get a black sugar care package from her family. This is not to say she is a representative of Okinawa diet or she will live long eating black sugar...)

Okinawans are also known to eat a lot of bitter melon and the most known recipe is "Chanpuru" (with pork, bitter melon, tofu and eggs) (Bitter melon is known to lower blood sugar.)

I imagine their caloric intake is still much lower than here, but still they are hardly vegans. (I've never seen meals there as big as here - probably the average american meal portion is bigger than of any other country - at least as far as restaurant portions go).

I don't know if you've eaten bitter melon, but it definitely is an acquired taste to me. (I've eaten it only twice in my life, and I don't want to try it again, even though it's good for you (for your blood sugar balance and such.)
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:50 PM   #37
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Okinawans are also know for Hara Hachi Bu - eat until you are 80% full.
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:03 PM   #38
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As far as Okinawans are concerned, I think they eat a lot of white rice, maybe not as much as the mainland people (since Okinawans eat more yam potatoes and such), but by American standards, more white rice, for sure - a little over a cup each meal. They even eat white wheat noodles (they have their own version of "ramen", a little different from the mainland "ramen") and they are known for fatty pork (like pork belly) (the other white meat??) as a protein source as well as fish.

They are also known for their black sugar. (I had a roommate in college who was from Okinawa and she would get a black sugar care package from her family. This is not to say she is a representative of Okinawa diet or she will live long eating black sugar...)

Okinawans are also known to eat a lot of bitter melon and the most known recipe is "Chanpuru" (with pork, bitter melon, tofu and eggs) (Bitter melon is known to lower blood sugar.)

I imagine their caloric intake is still much lower than here, but still they are hardly vegans. (I've never seen meals there as big as here - probably the average american meal portion is bigger than of any other country - at least as far as restaurant portions go).

I don't know if you've eaten bitter melon, but it definitely is an acquired taste to me. (I've eaten it only twice in my life, and I don't want to try it again, even though it's good for you (for your blood sugar balance and such.)
I eat it, and like it. A Chinese woman at a table where I sat down in a Asian grocery told me several ways to fix it. Mostly, saute with onion and garlic and then maybe add some mushrooms, or some eggs, or
some bacon or other pork-quite similar to the recipe you gave above

I believe we often over simplify the differences in cultures, and we tend to focus on differences in foods consumed, in particular the macronutrients. I remember reading an epidemiological study of Japanese in America which found that more heart diease was found in Japanese who Americanized in ways other than foods, than in those who kept old social forms and ate American foods. Maybe American social life is cardio-toxic.

Ha
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:07 AM   #39
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Interesting and probably a very valid point.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:57 PM   #40
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Maybe American social life is cardio-toxic.

Ha
Duh.
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