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Old 12-28-2015, 05:25 PM   #161
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Must be habits because whenever I go to Europe, I only buy milk that is in the refrigerated section.

same with juice, the same brands like Tropicana are in the refrigerated section.
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Old 12-28-2015, 05:55 PM   #162
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In the US, UHT milk is generally called "shelf-stable milk". I find it most often in the grocery store juice-box aisle where it goes into lunch boxes. Horizon is probably the most common brand with plain, chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry flavors.

https://www.horizondairy.com/product...plain-milk-box
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Old 12-28-2015, 07:50 PM   #163
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The little Horizon UHT milk boxes are great for traveling! I am high maintenance on how I take my coffee, and have used them a lot on camping trips.

However, I had the luxury the last time I was in a tent this past fall, of being able to store my milk in fellow forumite sengsational's RV refrigerator! . Thanks again!
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Old 12-28-2015, 08:48 PM   #164
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The little Horizon UHT milk boxes are great for traveling! I am high maintenance on how I take my coffee, and have used them a lot on camping trips.

However, I had the luxury the last time I was in a tent this past fall, of being able to store my milk in fellow forumite sengsational's RV refrigerator! . Thanks again!
Those little airplane Bailey's bottles work great with coffee too, and don't require refrigeration.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:11 PM   #165
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Those little airplane Bailey's bottles work great with coffee too, and don't require refrigeration.
If you bring enough of them, they don't even require coffee.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:17 PM   #166
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Airline coffee is what's known as "kind coffee". The kind they sweep off the floor...

Having said that, I still drink it. Will have to remember that Bailey's thing.
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:09 AM   #167
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I don't buy organic and I don't wash my vegetables. I figure that small challenges to my immune system are good for it.
I try to buy organic to reduce pesticide intake, but agree that accepting a few innocuous bacteria, wild yeast, etc is probably a good way to not be the first guy to have a strong reaction to some mildly hostile bugs.

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The little Horizon UHT milk boxes are great for traveling! I am high maintenance on how I take my coffee, and have used them a lot on camping trips.

However, I had the luxury the last time I was in a tent this past fall, of being able to store my milk in fellow forumite sengsational's RV refrigerator! . Thanks again!
Glad to have been helpful, but I'm sure you could have managed with the chunky milk in the cooler, lol!
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Old 12-29-2015, 07:36 AM   #168
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So we've gone around and around on this, and we always come to the same conclusion (as witnessed by the Bailey's talk above):

- Alcohol kills bacteria, drink more alcohol

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Old 12-29-2015, 09:28 AM   #169
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I try to buy organic to reduce pesticide intake, ...
Except that may not be the case, 'organic' farmers are allowed to spray lots of pesticides, as long as they are considered 'natural':

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

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When you test synthetic chemicals for their ability to cause cancer, you find that about half of them are carcinogenic. Until recently, nobody bothered to look at natural chemicals (such as organic pesticides), because it was assumed that they posed little risk. But when the studies were done, the results were somewhat shocking: you find that about half of the natural chemicals studied are carcinogenic as well.

This is a case where everyone (consumers, farmers, researchers) made the same, dangerous mistake. We assumed that "natural" chemicals were automatically better and safer than synthetic materials, and we were wrong. It's important that we be more prudent in our acceptance of "natural" as being innocuous and harmless.

....

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.

When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.
The 'synthetic' pesticides are being improved so that they pose less risk, break down faster, etc. There are very few 'natural' pesticides to choose from, and limited ways to improve them.

-ERD50
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:26 PM   #170
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Must be habits because whenever I go to Europe, I only buy milk that is in the refrigerated section.

same with juice, the same brands like Tropicana are in the refrigerated section.
Aseptic processing & packaging to achieve shelf stability without refrigeration is a wonderful thing - and reduces the need for refrigeration space/cost.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:28 PM   #171
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I don't buy organic and I don't wash my vegetables. I figure that small challenges to my immune system are good for it.
Yep. Haven't heard of too many people dying of preservatives.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:21 PM   #172
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Yep. Haven't heard of too many people dying of preservatives.
Not that we know about.

Who knows if some preservatives increase the likelihood of cancer for some people.
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:30 PM   #173
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Not that we know about.

Who knows if some preservatives increase the likelihood of cancer for some people.
But we do know of people dying acutely from organic food, right, versus some theoretical hype?
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Old 12-31-2015, 10:13 AM   #174
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Not that we know about.

Who knows if some preservatives increase the likelihood of cancer for some people.
And who knows if some preservatives decrease the likelihood of cancer for some people? After all, chemo-therapy is 'chemicals'.

Is there any correlation between cancer incidence rates (the only stat that matters for this kind of question - mortality and overall occurrence are more related to treatment improvements and the fact that people aren't dying from other things), and the use of all these new 'chemicals'? I'm not even sure if incidence rates are a good stat - aren't we better at detecting cancer than we used to be?


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But we do know of people dying acutely from organic food, right, versus some theoretical hype?
With so many things to fear, I try to be pragmatic. Do something about the known stuff, spend less time worrying about the theoretical.

Though I do think Brewer has a point - if you have simple options, maybe it makes sense to avoid a theoretical issue. Leaves more 'room' for alcohol and bacon!

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Old 12-31-2015, 03:54 PM   #175
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And who knows if some preservatives decrease the likelihood of cancer for some people? After all, chemo-therapy is 'chemicals'.

Is there any correlation between cancer incidence rates (the only stat that matters for this kind of question - mortality and overall occurrence are more related to treatment improvements and the fact that people aren't dying from other things), and the use of all these new 'chemicals'? I'm not even sure if incidence rates are a good stat - aren't we better at detecting cancer than we used to be?
Funny you should mention -- I did a double-take awhile back when I discovered some people were taking the preservative BHT as a dietary supplement (can't call it medicine per the FDA). It's supposed to have an antiviral effect. The first time I saw the initials was when I would read the ingredients on the back of the cereal box, paired with its cousin BHA.
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Old 12-31-2015, 04:11 PM   #176
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Who knows if some preservatives increase the likelihood of cancer for some people.
We do know that preservatives are used to slow the oxidation of many foods (e.g oils and lipids, esp), and the production of free radicals. We also know that free radicals cause cellular damage, including some cancers. The fact that some preservatives reduce cancers should not be in dispute.
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Old 12-31-2015, 04:15 PM   #177
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The first time I saw the initials [BHT] was when I would read the ingredients on the back of the cereal box, paired with its cousin BHA.
Fun fact: often the BHT is just added to the packaging (sometimes that waxy plastic bag that holds the cookies inside the box). That's enough to keep them from spoiling.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:46 PM   #178
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Sales down 14.6% in last quarter, now a grand jury looking into norovirus outbreak at CA branch where meat was stored unsafely.

I held off on visiting a couple of days before a flight. Why take chances?

The brand damage may be irreparable.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:49 PM   #179
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To be clear, Chipotle was served with a subpoena. They haven't been accused of any wrong-doing, and there is no evidence that the grand jury investigation is specifically targeting Chipotle rather than its suppliers.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:57 PM   #180
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To be clear, Chipotle was served with a subpoena. They haven't been accused of any wrong-doing, and there is no evidence that the grand jury investigation is specifically targeting Chipotle rather than its suppliers.
The public will hold Chipotle responsible for the safety of the food they serve.

I don't think the damage will be irreparable, but it will take time and real changes to put things back on track. The changes will involve attention to standards, to training, and to continual inspection of their supply chain. It's unlikely that Chipotle can afford to take the risk of having hundreds of tiny hole-in-the-wall local suppliers when any slip-up will cost the entire company a lot of money and goodwill.

As a youth I worked in a fast food chain. At our store training was good and standards were tight. In the year or so I worked there, I never saw any toleration for a practice or problem that would have jeopardized food safety. It can be done, but it requires work and Chipotle won't get its reputation back overnight.
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