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Old 10-24-2014, 02:45 PM   #421
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How about posting your home address and inviting people returning from treating patients in Africa to eat dinner and play with your kids? I mean, they are not showing symptoms so what could be the harm?

Oh, what was that? Some concern after all?
Actually - if they weren't showing symptoms at all - I would have no problem. In fact if they were from one of the aide organizations like Doctors w/out Bordors, I'd bake a special cake to thank them.

I'd probably insist they wash their hands before eating - just like I do my kids.

If they developed extreme vomiting or diahrea while in my home - I'd move to a different room, call 911 and explain, and make sure someone with proper attire cleaned up the mess.

This post is not sarcastic.

If it were as easily transmitted as you are implying, then the girlfriend and son of Duncan would have gotten it. Also the mom of Vinson and the boyfriend of Pham. All have come out of the incubation period with no issues.

And everyone who came to or left the hospital while he was there... not just the two nurses.

Yet that hasn't happened. No new cases acquired in the US since the nurses - including *their* caregivers and kin.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:30 PM   #422
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And some overconfident, smug buggers could benefit from getting a clue just how incompetent gubmint officials can be when the chips are down.
Are you implying I am smug and over confident bugger?
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:45 PM   #423
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Actually - if they weren't showing symptoms at all - I would have no problem. In fact if they were from one of the aide organizations like Doctors w/out Borders, I'd bake a special cake to thank them.
In fact the only people in the USA diagnosed with ebola are folks that were helping others. None of the bystanders have contracted it. Even in west Africa many of the cases are cargivers. IIRC something like 40% of the medical personnel in west Africa have died from Ebola.

And everyone, don't forget to get a flu shot...we can get that just by being a bystander.
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:05 PM   #424
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It sounds like he followed protocol (which doesn't include quarantine) to a tee in monitoring his temperature etc with medical staff and reporting any sign of symptoms every day, and immediately was taken to the hospital when he spiked a fever. I too wish him a speedy recovery and admire the people in Doctors Without Borders and others who take their medical expertise to places like West Africa.

So much $$ is pouring in to help with this awful disease in so many ways--the Gateses, Zuckergerg, and now Paul Allen's $100 million Billionaire Paul Allen pledges at least $100 million to fight Ebola - LA Times. I also see that several trials for different vaccines and meds are at full speed now on humans. Hopefully something will be found effective and we can all get vaccinated in a year or so.
Yes he did but I guess it's too much to hope for people to be rational about this. There was no reason for him to avoid contact with people until he started showing symptoms. The only reason they have to do contact tracing in his case is an abundance of caution.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the Doctors with Borders recruits doctors for 9-12 month assignments (shorter in some cases). It pays these doctors under $2K/month (good luck paying student loan debt on that salary.) Then sends them into the hot spots of the world, surrounded by killers (either biological or human).

As great as all the donated money is, we also really really need these brave folks out on the front lines. If we add a mandatory 3 week quarantine every time they leave Africa we are reducing they effectiveness of the doctors and making the recruitment process more difficult.

Doctor without Borders has been battling Ebola in West Africa for almost a year and this is there first staff member who has symptoms of the disease since leaving Africa. The only way Ebola becomes a big deal in the US is if it become even more of a catastrophe in Africa. You can learn more and donate here
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Oct 24 What To Fear Report!
Old 10-24-2014, 04:32 PM   #425
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Oct 24 What To Fear Report!

Nobody's concerned about the free movement of rabbits, squirrels, and other wildlife known to act as carriers of the ebola virus out of the Dallas and NYC hot zones?

Be careful with that bush meat.

Meanwhile, noted virologist and epidemiologist Peter King has terrifying news.

Doctors at the Biocontainment Unit at The Nebraska Medical Center have a secret ebola cure. I, you, we all should scream for this!
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:30 PM   #426
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In fact the only people in the USA diagnosed with ebola are folks that were helping others. None of the bystanders have contracted it. Even in west Africa many of the cases are cargivers. IIRC something like 40% of the medical personnel in west Africa have died from Ebola.

And everyone, don't forget to get a flu shot...we can get that just by being a bystander.
I misread statistics in something I posted on another random thread, so I may be wrong here, but I think it is 40 percent of the medical personnel who came down with ebola who have died from it, not 40 percent of all the medical personnel helping there (and all of them are heroes in my book).
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New York and New Jersey Governors mandate quarantine for ebola aid workers
Old 10-24-2014, 07:01 PM   #427
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New York and New Jersey Governors mandate quarantine for ebola aid workers

Ebola In NYC: Governor Orders All Ebola Aid Workers Into Quarantine. Do You Agree? - Forbes

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“It’s too serious a situation to leave it to the honor system of compliance,” according to New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.
Cuomo pointed to news that Dr. Craig Spencer, the doctor who treated Ebola patients in Guinea while working for Doctors Without Borders, was traveling around New York City the night before Spencer was himself diagnosed with Ebola.
And from the non-politicians:
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There’s no evidence that quarantining aid workers who fought Ebola in Africa will make any difference in fighting Ebola in America.

“It’s completely unnecessary,” Harvard’s Ashish Jha told Vox’s Sarah Kliff. (Jha’s the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute). “I’m a believer in an abundance of caution but I’m not a believer of an abundance of idiocy.”
Jha and others stress that Ebola is only transmitted when you have close contact with an Ebola patient — say, if you’re a doctor or nurse who’s caring for that patient without adequate protection.
Bear in mind that the amount of ebola virus present in a patient is low at the time of fever and symptom onset, and highest (and most readily transmissible) during the acute phase of illness and in the bodies of recently deceased. Empirically, the virus has only been detected on the skin of patients in the acute phase. Note that patients in the acute phase are like really, really sick, and don't tend to go bowling, jogging, or clubbing. Deceased patients are even less active.


Review of Human-to-Human Transmission of Ebola Virus | Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever | CDC


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Old 10-24-2014, 07:46 PM   #428
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The penalty for being wrong about the quarantine is an inconvenience for a few dozen people in NYC.

The penalty for being wrong about the ease of transmission is an inconvenience for those who die. (plus a massive inconvenience for millions of people due to the panic it would cause if one person in NYC catches the virus third hand)

When you can cure Ebola (and not just administer phase 1 drugs or blood from a survivor) then we will talk about you really knowing everything there is to know about this virus.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:40 PM   #429
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The penalty for being wrong about the quarantine is an inconvenience for a few dozen people in NYC.

The penalty for being wrong about the ease of transmission is an inconvenience for those who die. (plus a massive inconvenience for millions of people due to the panic it would cause if one person in NYC catches the virus third hand)

When you can cure Ebola (and not just administer phase 1 drugs or blood from a survivor) then we will talk about you really knowing everything there is to know about this virus.
+1000.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:18 PM   #430
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The penalty for being wrong about the quarantine is an inconvenience for a few dozen people in NYC.

The penalty for being wrong about the ease of transmission is an inconvenience for those who die. (plus a massive inconvenience for millions of people due to the panic it would cause if one person in NYC catches the virus third hand)

When you can cure Ebola (and not just administer phase 1 drugs or blood from a survivor) then we will talk about you really knowing everything there is to know about this virus.
+1
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:44 PM   #431
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Gosh, it sure looks like folks feel it's important to do everything possible to keep someone else from dying, even going beyond measures recommended by the experts and demanding things that seriously affect folks for weeks.

Does this level of concern apply solely to ebola, or does it apply to other potentially lethal stuff out there?
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Old 10-25-2014, 01:32 AM   #432
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Gosh, it sure looks like folks feel it's important to do everything possible to keep someone else from dying, even going beyond measures recommended by the experts and demanding things that seriously affect folks for weeks.

Does this level of concern apply solely to ebola, or does it apply to other potentially lethal stuff out there?
+1
I think it more than inconvenience for those brave health care work, I think it potentially cost the lives of some Africans.

Imagine you are Doctor volunteering for Doctors without borders, or US public health care professional asked to go to West Africa. During the 9-12 months you'll be overseas, you know you have to come back to or may need to comeback a couple of times to the US, an elder parent, wedding, critical business meeting. The 3 week quarantine, three times extends your tour of duty by 9 weeks. Best case the NIH,CDC, Doctors with Borders, has to find somebody to fill in for the extra 3 weeks you are gone. Which wouldn't be so bad except for no such person exists. The worse case is that you decide that as much as you'd love to help out family comes first and stay home.

Yes this puts Americans at some tiny elevated risk, I still contend its far less than risk than having a 1 million ebola cases in Africa.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:03 AM   #433
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+1
I think it more than inconvenience for those brave health care work, I think it potentially cost the lives of some Africans.

Imagine you are Doctor volunteering for Doctors without borders, or US public health care professional asked to go to West Africa. During the 9-12 months you'll be overseas, you know you have to come back to or may need to comeback a couple of times to the US, an elder parent, wedding, critical business meeting. The 3 week quarantine, three times extends your tour of duty by 9 weeks. Best case the NIH,CDC, Doctors with Borders, has to find somebody to fill in for the extra 3 weeks you are gone. Which wouldn't be so bad except for no such person exists. The worse case is that you decide that as much as you'd love to help out family comes first and stay home.

Yes this puts Americans at some tiny elevated risk, I still contend its far less than risk than having a 1 million ebola cases in Africa.
The difference here is the Doctor had a choice by volunteering to go into a very dangerous situation and has a choice of how he or she behaves when they return.

The poor soul who picks up a sweaty bowling ball didn't volunteer for anything.

You are just not understanding the economic ramifications of even a tiny outbreak of Ebola from one of these returning healthcare workers. Billions lost in productivity from panic and shutdowns, all of which could be prevented by choosing not to go to a wedding or business meeting?
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:24 AM   #434
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What would be very useful is a blood test for Ebola that is effective before symptoms are manifest. Someone who comes from an Ebola area or who has been in contact with an Ebola patient can go into quarantine for a couple days pending results of the test.

I agree that requiring health care providers who have been working in Eastern Africa to be quarantined for 21 days would be disastrous.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:50 AM   #435
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What we're suggesting is finding a common sense middle-ground between the best practices and accumulated medical/scientific knowledge, and what some wild-eyed political or "news" organization opines. Good luck with that...
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:16 AM   #436
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This sums it up pretty well. I still think there could be flights arranged for healthcare workers to come and go without making things in Africa worse, and that non-medical passengers from West Africa be denied entry at this time:
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:24 PM   #437
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The difference here is the Doctor had a choice by volunteering to go into a very dangerous situation and has a choice of how he or she behaves when they return.

The poor soul who picks up a sweaty bowling ball didn't volunteer for anything.

You are just not understanding the economic ramifications of even a tiny outbreak of Ebola from one of these returning healthcare workers. Billions lost in productivity from panic and shutdowns, all of which could be prevented by choosing not to go to a wedding or business meeting?
I think your argument would makes sense if there ever was an example of Ebola being transmitted from sweat. There hasn't been. AFAIK, there are no or almost no example of somebody with early symptoms transmitting the disease.

It somewhat reminds of the hysteria, when AIDs first hit the scene. People with HIV were fired, kids weren't allowed to go to school, lots of bans were proposed with respect to gays. The panic was understandable in many ways, a highly lethal disease with no cure and no treatment. AIDs actually is lot scary than Ebola even today. It appears with prompt medical help in a Western hospital you are very likely to survive Ebola and after a few weeks are pretty healthy again.

The ultimate solution with HIV/AIDs was education, not knee jerk reactions.
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Old 10-26-2014, 05:09 PM   #438
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I think your argument would makes sense if there ever was an example of Ebola being transmitted from sweat.
Why wait?

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AFAIK, there are no or almost no example of somebody with early symptoms transmitting the disease.
More Russian roulette. What you really want to know is that it cannot be spread pre-symptom onset. Short of that proof I believe its borderline attempted manslaughter to let these vectors move freely on the hunch, and that's all it is, the hunch, that it "cannot be transmitted this way or that way" and "as far as we know now nobody has gotten it from this or that". Attempted Manslaughter.

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AIDs actually is lot scary than Ebola even today. It appears with prompt medical help in a Western hospital you are very likely to survive Ebola and after a few weeks are pretty healthy again.
I am imputing you meant "AIDS is a lot scarier than ebola."

It is not. It is very hard to spread. The way people think ebola is but isn't.

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It appears with prompt medical help in a Western hospital you are very likely to survive Ebola and after a few weeks are pretty healthy again.
Now. Just wait till lots of people get it. And why keep whacking that hornets nest anyway. Why not just keep it from spreading? And I mean without relying on "it appears, ..... it doesn't seem likely...., nobody has yet....., thus far there is no evidence..." BS wishful thinking.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:08 PM   #439
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If Ebola is so incredibly hard to get then how did the American journalist in Africa come down with it? He was taking all precautions and did not have the close contact with bodily fluids that you expect with nurses and doctors.

"Mukpo isn't sure how he contracted Ebola because he said he was careful while filming."

You don't really know what you think you know about this virus.
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:50 PM   #440
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Why wait?



More Russian roulette. What you really want to know is that it cannot be spread pre-symptom onset. Short of that proof I believe its borderline attempted manslaughter to let these vectors move freely on the hunch, and that's all it is, the hunch, that it "cannot be transmitted this way or that way" and "as far as we know now nobody has gotten it from this or that". Attempted Manslaughter.
It is hardly a hunch they have been studying this disease from more the 30 years, while there is a lot the don't know. They do know a lot with respect to how its spread.

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I am imputing you meant "AIDS is a lot scarier than ebola."

It is not. It is very hard to spread. The way people think ebola is but isn't.

Now. Just wait till lots of people get it. And why keep whacking that hornets nest anyway. Why not just keep it from spreading? And I mean without relying on "it appears, ..... it doesn't seem likely...., nobody has yet....., thus far there is no evidence..." BS wishful thinking.
That is just plan wrong. Let reviews some facts here. HIV/AID and Ebola both hit the radar of western medicine in the 1970. The origins of both are unresolved.

Prior to this outbreak, despite scores of outbreaks primarily in the Congo and central Africa the total number of case of Ebola was less than 2,000 over the last 30+ years . The unique burial procedure of West Africa which involve cleaning and touching corpses were huge contributor to this outbreak.

In contrast 31 million have died of AIDS, and currently 35 million mostly in Africa, have HIV/AIDS disease. In 2011, 1.7 million people died of the disease.

Which means that for every person who has died of Ebola more than 50,000 have died of AIDS, and even if Ebola become the type of crisis that WHO/CDC is forecast 1 million early next year, AIDS will still be more deadly in 2015.

So explain to me how a AIDS a disease that kills almost as many people each day as have died in Ebola outbreak is either more deadly or harder to spread.

I understood why people advocated quarantine folks with HIV back in the 70s and early 80s. Scientist and doctors knew almost nothing about it.

This is not case with Ebola. Doctors and public health official are practically unanimous in calling this quarantine a really bad idea. I think we should listen to them.
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