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Old 02-01-2011, 10:12 AM   #21
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I dunno, but googling this:

"courts uphold health reform"

provided 334,000 hits. And the first page at least all seemed to be exactly on subject.

-ERD50
That's good, any of the sources FOXnews
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:14 AM   #22
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So this is interesting:

Durbin, Dems fight back at court hearing striking down Obama health reform law. Hearing Wednesday - Lynn Sweet
Quote:

[WASHINGTON, D.C] - Assistant Senate Majority Leader Dick Durbin (D-IL) will chair the first-ever Congressional hearing examining the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act on Wednesday, February 2nd, at 10:00am ET. ....

Witnesses expected to testify at Wednesday's hearing include: Oregon Attorney General John Kroger; Georgetown University law professor Randy Barnett; Michael Carvin, a partner at Jones Day; Duke University law professor and former Solicitor General Walter Dellinger; and Harvard University law professor and former Solicitor General Charles Fried.
I thought it was the Supreme Court who determined Constitutionality? Now the lawmakers want to weigh in on that? What happened to separation of powers?

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Old 02-01-2011, 10:15 AM   #23
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That's good, any of the sources FOXnews
You seem intent on bringing in the pig to close down a thread on a discussion that you don't want aired. Hasn't ziggy sent enough warnings to you?

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Old 02-01-2011, 10:15 AM   #24
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I'd also add only that there's a Constitutional difference between state law and federal law. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the courts should throw out the Massachusetts mandate on Constitutional grounds.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:16 AM   #25
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:17 AM   #26
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It shows that party unity and public policy as a full contact team sport is more important that seeking consensus and common ground (where it can be found if they all look for it) and getting the right things done, which is a shame.
I agree.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:17 AM   #27
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Don ya just love the smell of repeatedly beaten horseflesh in the morning...
Hopefully served with eggs, toast and orange juice.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:22 AM   #28
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I'd also add only that there's a Constitutional difference between state law and federal law. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the courts should throw out the Massachusetts mandate on Constitutional grounds.
Obviously. The Federal legislation is fashioned after existing state laws. That's a good thing about the American system, you have 50 states to test out ideas and laws. Of course that arrangement also makes it difficult to come up with a consensus across 50 states.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:26 AM   #29
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You seem intent on bringing in the pig to close down a thread on a discussion that you don't want aired. Hasn't ziggy sent enough warnings to you?

-ERD50
Sorry if my opinions are an issue, I thought I was on topic....well maybe the Foxnews jab was a bit cheeky.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:26 AM   #30
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Obviously. The Federal legislation is fashioned after existing state laws. That's a good thing about the American system, you have 50 states to test out ideas and laws. Of course that arrangement also makes it difficult to come up with a consensus across 50 states.
IMO, that's the beauty of federalism. We have 50 states in various regions with different cultural and economic values. Not only can this allow different groups of people to implement laws that suit their values, but we also have 50 independent "laboratories of democracy" so that if a federal solution is warranted, we can look to the states to see what's working and what isn't (in other words, states are free to choose to be guinea pigs).

Why force the northeastern states to have the same laws as the southern states when what they want is obviously different in so many cases?

Plus it forces state government to be more accountable to its people. Since people and businesses can freely move from state to state, state governments have to be accountable to its constituents if they want these people and their tax revenues to stay in-state. There's something to be said for that, IMO. People can't just easily leave the country if they don't approve of federal law.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
So this is interesting:

Durbin, Dems fight back at court hearing striking down Obama health reform law. Hearing Wednesday - Lynn Sweet


I thought it was the Supreme Court who determined Constitutionality? Now the lawmakers want to weigh in on that? What happened to separation of powers?

-ERD50
They ought to be studying what may have gone wrong here. Both on the constitutionality of the mandate and on whether they should have included a sever-ability clause. On groundbreaking social programs affecting the entire country it is a disaster to get the underlying constitutionality wrong. Keep in mind, this reversal does not invalidate the concept of universal health care, just the specific approach taken. Congress should have foreseen the problems and addressed them.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:11 AM   #32
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Don't ya just love the smell of repeatedly beaten horseflesh in the morning...
Yeah, but I can't help snickering every time I see the acronym "SCOTUS"...
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:26 AM   #33
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Why force the northeastern states to have the same laws as the southern states when what they want is obviously different in so many cases?
I'm tempted to mention the Civil War....oops did it., and that's obviously taking things to extremes. But having grown up with a Parliamentary system of government I more often than not find myself frustrated with the American system. It definitely has it's positives, but coming to a consensus about solving a problem is not one of it's strengths, or maybe that is a strength.....
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:31 AM   #34
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They ought to be studying what may have gone wrong here. Both on the constitutionality of the mandate and on whether they should have included a sever-ability clause. On groundbreaking social programs affecting the entire country it is a disaster to get the underlying constitutionality wrong. Keep in mind, this reversal does not invalidate the concept of universal health care, just the specific approach taken. Congress should have foreseen the problems and addressed them.
The constitutionality one way or the other isn't decided yet. But I agree that I would have preferred that the system was funded through taxation thus avoiding the court battles.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:34 AM   #35
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Sorry if my opinions are an issue, I thought I was on topic....well maybe the Foxnews jab was a bit cheeky.
And wrong. 236 of 'em. FWIW, which is nothing in particular.

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Old 02-01-2011, 11:46 AM   #36
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I'm tempted to mention the Civil War....oops did it., and that's obviously taking things to extremes.
Yes, but those differences were "settled" by Constitutional Amendment rather than looking the other way when it's violated.

If nothing else, though they'd have to find the votes for it, they'd have to chuck the "individual mandate" as passed and instead seek universal single-payer funded through tax revenues rather than making individuals purchase a private product. Medicare is a precedent for this passing Constitutional muster.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:02 PM   #37
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:03 PM   #38
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... and instead seek universal single-payer funded through tax revenues rather than making individuals purchase a private product. Medicare is a precedent for this passing Constitutional muster.
Isn't a voucher system (like the Swiss use) another alternative? It isn't unconstitutional (AFAIK) to tax people and give them something in return.

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Old 02-01-2011, 12:10 PM   #39
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I'm tempted to mention the Civil War....oops did it., and that's obviously taking things to extremes. But having grown up with a Parliamentary system of government I more often than not find myself frustrated with the American system. It definitely has it's positives, but coming to a consensus about solving a problem is not one of it's strengths, or maybe that is a strength.....


IMO, that is the strenght of the American system... because the system usually does come to a consensus on solving a problem... that is usually why when one side or the other tries to force something through it has a lot of problems... (this is not aimed at the current bill, but in general)...

Now, the time frame for getting that decision is usually long and drawn out... but again, that is good in that nothing gets done quickly unless everybody is on board... (but even then they make big mistakes... look at some of the 9/11 legislation)...
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:10 PM   #40
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Isn't a voucher system (like the Swiss use) another alternative? It isn't unconstitutional (AFAIK) to tax people and give them something in return.
Perhaps, but the main point is that it has to funded through taxation and not through some mandate that each citizen purchase some private product with their own after-tax dollars.
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