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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #21
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

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Originally Posted by wab
My guess is that the odds of sleep-related death is much higher than 8/24.
Hmm...since few people sleep longer than 8 hours a day, I would imagine it'd be pretty tough to get the odds of sleep related death to be higher than 8 hours out of 24...

As far as general death rates, whether sleeping or not...I'd think you'd be much more likely to die when awake. Not a lot of hazards in my king size bed. Except for some fairly noxious dog farts.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 11:21 AM   #22
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Hmm...since few people sleep longer than 8 hours a day, I would imagine it'd be pretty tough to get the odds of sleep related death to be higher than 8 hours out of 24...
Err, if people only slept for 1 hour/day, but everybody died in their sleep, the odds of sleep-related death would be 100%. 8/24 is what you'd expect from a random distribution if people slept 8 hours and sleep had no bearing on death.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 11:45 AM   #23
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab

My guess is that the odds of sleep-related death is much higher than 8/24.
Sure, but now we have to control for deteriorating old folks, cancer patients, and the like. They are sleeping most of the time so they will tend to die in their sleep. Maybe Rick's theorem should be revised to state "the odds of dying in your sleep are equal to the proportion of the day you are asleep."
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 11:54 AM   #24
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Maybe Rick's theorem should be revised to state "the odds of dying in your sleep are equal to the proportion of the day you are asleep."
OK, I accept that as Rich's theorem, but I still think it's wrong.

Now, here's Wab's conjecture. I've always heard that *most* people die in their sleep. I'd like to quantify that. And it makes sense to me that most people would die in their sleep if sleep apnea becomes more prevalent as we age, which is does. So, if most people die in their sleep, they are probably either suffocating or experiencing a heart attack from the side effects of apnea.

Still want to take a nap?
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 02:14 PM   #25
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
Still want to take a nap?
You bet! I love the napping part, it's the waking up that's a PITA...
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 02:22 PM   #26
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
Now, here's Wab's conjecture. I've always heard that *most* people die in their sleep.
Why don't we just ask 'em?
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 02:51 PM   #27
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

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Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Why don't we just ask 'em?
C'mon, Doc. : Cut wab a little slack. To be at least semi-believable you need to take a poll. Be sure to restrict responses to only those who have first person experience.


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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 02:56 PM   #28
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
C'mon, Doc. : Cut wab a little slack. To be at least semi-believable you need to take a poll. Be sure to restrict responses to only those who have first person experience.


Just yankin' Wab's chain a little. He's a player - he can take it.

Right Wab? Wab? Oops - he's off taking a nap.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:01 PM   #29
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Just yankin' Wab's chain a little. He's a player - he can take it.

Right Wab? Wab? Oops - he's off taking a nap.
Let's hope he's not dead serious about it...

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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:02 PM   #30
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Why don't we just ask 'em?
You're not going to help me disprove your theorem, are you?

OK, I finally found some data:

link

... 60 percent rise in death rate beginning at 2 A.M. and reaching a peak at 8 A.M.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:05 PM   #31
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
On the subject of sleep apnea, apparently 30 million or so suffer from it, and most go undiagnosed. And Rich only described OSA, but there is also a CNS type of apnea that probably becomes more common with age.
All kidding aside, Wab is right - it's a very prevalent and underdiagnosed disease (at times it is also overdiagnosed). If you keep dropping your oxygen level during unrecognized apnea episodes (where your breathing pauses too long) it eventually leads to a special type of heart failure and can be fatal.

Sometimes the only symptoms are not even related to sleep (the patient or partner isn't aware of them). I've seen patients present with headaches, shortness of breath, depression, ankle swelling, joking about snoring, and other symptoms where sleep apnea is not the obvious diagnosis.

And while most patients are in fact very obese, there is a subgroup who have problems with the brain's breathing and sleep control mechanism, and others who have a problem in the pharynx, where the tissues just collapse during breathing and sleep.

Many cases can be controlled with a fairly simple mask device at night; some require surgery, and many require massive weight loss. It's a big deal, but treatable.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:12 PM   #32
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Wab, the link you posted also says...

"The... pattern appeared only in the temporal distribution of deaths of persons over 65 years of age; deaths of persons under 65 did not show significant temporal concentration."

Do we discern from these findings that those over 65 could increase their longevity by sleeping days and going about their daily activities at night?

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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:21 PM   #33
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Do we discern from these findings that those over 65 could increase their longevity by sleeping days and going about their daily activities at night?
Yes, but only in New York city.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:25 PM   #34
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
OK, I finally found some data:

link

... 60 percent rise in death rate beginning at 2 A.M. and reaching a peak at 8 A.M.
("But most people die in their sleep, right?"). Uh... nope.

A 60% rise for a 6 hour period compared to a baseline 18 hour period still leaves most people dying during the day. Example: 100 people die each hour for 18 hours = 1800 deaths during waking hours; 160 people per hour die during the 6 hour peak = 960 deaths. There are still almost twice as many wakeful deaths as there are sleeping deaths. Even more if you include the over-65ers.

Should we agree that there is an excessive death rate during sleep if you are over 65 years old, but that most people of any age still die during the day?

BTW, the heart attack rate in the morning has long been part of urban legend and now has some basis in evidence. It a time of day when cortisol levels are rising quickly, and adrenaline surges as you awaken; blood pressure may drop when you first get up after lying down all night, and the stresses of the day suddenly resurface.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:32 PM   #35
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
adrenaline surges as you awaken; blood pressure may drop when you first get up after lying down all night, and the stresses of the day suddenly resurface.
So, taking a nap is good for you as long as you don't wake up?
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 03:59 PM   #36
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
So, taking a nap is good for you as long as you don't wake up?


Now we're getting somewhere.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-14-2007, 06:57 PM   #37
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

I think waking up dead is the only way to go.
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR
Old 02-15-2007, 11:30 AM   #38
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Re: FIRE, napping, and SWR

How about we plan to never sleep again, cutting our risk of death by 1/3?

Hey, its "fun with stats" time!
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