Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-04-2007, 02:56 PM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,199
After I get my flu shot, I watch the flu spread across the country here:

CDC - Influenza (Flu) | Weekly Report: Influenza Summary Update Week 20 , 2006-2007 Season
__________________

__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-04-2007, 02:58 PM   #22
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
I actually don't vaccinate at all. Neither does my wife, and we don't vaccinate our child.
Are you saying that you've skipped the hepatitis vaccines ? If so I think you are taking a huge risk .
Definitely skipped them for our son. Getting the HepB at birth is not necessary for the majority of the population, despite the doctors' (or is it the CDC on this one, too?) "goal" to immunize 100% of the population. Our son can decide later in life if he wants to take the vaccines after he weighs the available information.

As for us, I know I was fully vaccinated as a child so I'm not sure which hepatitis vaccines I was or was not vaccinated for. I could always get my immunity checked if I knew I was going to be in a situation with increased risk.

There may be information I've overlooked with regards to the hepatitis disease, complications vaccinations, general risks, and personal risk factors, so I'm open to any information you have as to why you feel that not vaccinating against these is a "huge risk."
__________________

__________________
Peaceful_Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:02 PM   #23
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24
I think the only reason to delay the flu shot is if you live in an area where the flu tends not to arrive early. The flu shot is only effective for a few months, so there isn't much point getting it at the beginning of October if you aren't likely to be exposed till February or March. As far as I know, it takes so long to grow the vaccine strains in sufficient quantity that unless there's some sort of genuine emergency, they won't be switching the makeup of the vaccine in the middle of the season.
__________________
Elspeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:04 PM   #24
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Here are some credible guides to immunization for adults.

There's something called herd immunity that I think is important and hasn't been mentioned. In a strongly immunized society, individuals omitting the vaccine usually get away with it due to low risk of exposure. As increasing numbers of people follow their lead, there is a breaking point at which serious outbreaks occur, sometimes even to those who were immunized a long time ago and have waning immunity. It is catastrophic. There are still outbreaks of polio (outbreaks in the Amish community for example) and almost every other immunizable illness.

So, immunizing yourself protects not just you, but the "herd" around you and your heirs.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:09 PM   #25
Full time employment: Posting here.
Sandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 855
Rich, thanks for bring up herd immunity. You said it accurately and eloquently as always.
__________________
I would not have anyone adopt my mode of living...but I would have each one be very careful to find out and pursue his own way, and not his father's or his mother's or his neighbor's instead. Thoreau, Walden
Sandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:53 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,035
Peaceful Warrior ,
Hepatits A is basically food poisoning so you can always be at risk .Remember the spinach problem that was hepatitis A and people die from it .In the Chi-Chi's(a mexican restaurant) case I believe four people died .It can cause severe liver failure .How can you be sure you are safe from that ?If you were vaccinated as a child and not since you probably have not been vaccinated for it .


Ps -Thanks Rich that was a great point
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 04:29 PM   #27
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
Definitely skipped them for our son. Getting the HepB at birth is not necessary for the majority of the population, despite the doctors' (or is it the CDC on this one, too?) "goal" to immunize 100% of the population. Our son can decide later in life if he wants to take the vaccines after he weighs the available information.
There may be information I've overlooked with regards to the hepatitis disease, complications vaccinations, general risks, and personal risk factors, so I'm open to any information you have as to why you feel that not vaccinating against these is a "huge risk."
Have you looked at those posters in the doctor's office showing photos of the kids afflicted with all those childhood diseases that your kid's not vaccinated against?

Ever had to deal with chicken pox? Shingles? Ever had to live with someone working through those viruses? As soon as the shingles vaccine is available to me I'm getting it. I don't care if it's one shot or a machine-gun clip, and my spouse probably doesn't care how many shots she has to put me through either. I get the flu vaccine every year as soon as I learn that it's available. If I could get the pneumonia shot I'd do that too.

As for "herd immunity", good luck with that. Submariners are vaccinated for just about every disease known to man (and one or two known only to farm animals) and yet one measly virus will take out an entire crew. When a submarine gets underway, for the first two weeks everyone is suffering from the sniffles (rotovirus). Eventually it clears up and everyone's fine... until the next liberty port. I've had bronchitis a dozen times, pneumonia several times, and I know many submariners who test positive for TB. Yet we probably have better demographics than your average urban apartment building.

Personally I wouldn't visit Hawaii without being vaccinated for both hepatitis A and B. And your kid can't go to public schools without certain vaccinations, but of course homeschooling avoids that issue.

This thread reminds me of TH's analogy of running across a 12-lane interstate with a paper bag over your head. If nothing bad happened the first time you tried it, would you do it again?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 04:53 PM   #28
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Have you looked at those posters in the doctor's office showing photos of the kids afflicted with all those childhood diseases that your kid's not vaccinated against?

Ever had to deal with chicken pox? Shingles? Ever had to live with someone working through those viruses? As soon as the shingles vaccine is available to me I'm getting it. I don't care if it's one shot or a machine-gun clip, and my spouse probably doesn't care how many shots she has to put me through either. I get the flu vaccine every year as soon as I learn that it's available. If I could get the pneumonia shot I'd do that too.
I've had chicken pox as a child and shingles as an adult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
As for "herd immunity", good luck with that. Submariners are vaccinated for just about every disease known to man (and one or two known only to farm animals) and yet one measly virus will take out an entire crew.
So you're saying that the vaccines don't help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
And your kid can't go to public schools without certain vaccinations, but of course homeschooling avoids that issue.
The public schools cannot legally deny children acceptance based solely on lack of vaccination. They may give a hard time, they may say you "can't" but the law says it's legal and provides for people by way of exemption.

That said, if our child was going to public school (or will be spending large amounts of time in daycares / etc) then we will re-evaluate the vaccine situation (if he's not yet old enough to do so himself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
This thread reminds me of TH's analogy of running across a 12-lane interstate with a paper bag over your head. If nothing bad happened the first time you tried it, would you do it again?
I don't think that is really analogous because it assumes that the choice not to vaccinate is an uneducated one, rather than a person taking in all available information and then making the decision they feel is right for themselves (not necessarily for others).
__________________
Peaceful_Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 05:10 PM   #29
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
So you're saying that the vaccines don't help?
No, I'm saying that things are bad enough with the vaccines in an environment full of young healthy people. Without vaccines it'd be inoperable. I'm comparing my experience to urban "herds" who are probably not as healthy, well-fed, or sanitary and hypothecating how it'd be without vaccinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
The public schools cannot legally deny children acceptance based solely on lack of vaccination. They may give a hard time, they may say you "can't" but the law says it's legal and provides for people by way of exemption.
That's an interesting opinion which, as far as I can tell from my non-professional perspective, isn't shared by the Hawaii public school system. Do you have any links or references to support your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
I don't think that is really analogous because it assumes that the choice not to vaccinate is an uneducated one, rather than a person taking in all available information and then making the decision they feel is right for themselves (not necessarily for others).
I agree that the decision has an emotional "feels right" component as well as a quantitative component. Either basis is the correct foundation for making a decision, although personally I doubt I'd "feel right" if my kid contracted a disease that we consciously decided to avoid the vaccination for. Unfortunately there's only one way to test that.

However I think that deciding not to vaccinate based on a quantitative analysis is a decision that does not logically flow from the statistics or from evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't use the "uneducated" word but it'll be interesting to see what decision your kid makes when equipped with a similar set of data. Hopefully there are no adverse experiences before then.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 05:14 PM   #30
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,035
Peaceful Warrior ,
You have strong opinions about vaccinations and I hope you are right because if you are wrong it's going to be tough to live with !
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 05:39 PM   #31
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
That's an interesting opinion which, as far as I can tell from my non-professional perspective, isn't shared by the Hawaii public school system. Do you have any links or references to support your opinion?
Hawaii Dept of Health

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawaii DOH
Are exemptions from immunizations allowed?


Children may be exempt from immunization requirements for medical or religious reasons, if the appropriate documentation is presented to the school. Religious exemption forms may be completed at the school that your child will attend. Medical exemptions must be obtained from your child’s doctor. No other exemptions are allowed by the State.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I agree that the decision has an emotional "feels right" component as well as a quantitative component. Either basis is the correct foundation for making a decision, although personally I doubt I'd "feel right" if my kid contracted a disease that we consciously decided to avoid the vaccination for. Unfortunately there's only one way to test that.
Would you feel bad if your child contracted a disease that you consciously avoided vaccination for, even if your child survived the disease with no permanent detrimental effects (physical nor emotional)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
However I think that deciding not to vaccinate based on a quantitative analysis is a decision that does not logically flow from the statistics or from evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't use the "uneducated" word but it'll be interesting to see what decision your kid makes when equipped with a similar set of data. Hopefully there are no adverse experiences before then.
I agree that deciding only on quantitative analysis alone does not make sense, which is why I take into account personal risk factors (such as health, physical location, etc) and my own "feeling" (i.e. "Could I accept remedying TB after being exposed to it, or could I accept lock-jaw for as long as 6 months in a worst-case TB scenario?").

I too will be interested to see what decision my son comes to when he is old enough to choose for himself.

When it comes to vaccinations, one thing that does concern me is early vaccinations before babies/infants have had a chance to strengthen their immune system. More and more doctors are promoting delayed vaccination... some as little as 6 months, and some as much as 5 years minimum.
__________________
Peaceful_Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 05:48 PM   #32
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
Peaceful Warrior ,
You have strong opinions about vaccinations and I hope you are right because if you are wrong it's going to be tough to live with !
I am in the minority in my opinions, but also in my research into the topic. Few people take the time to actually understand the risks associated with both vaccinating and not-vaccinating, and then also address the risks and issues from their own personal situation.

I don't advocate that all people take the path I have chosen because choosing what is right is different for each of us. I have a different level of acceptance to some things than others, and I have different fears than others.

Along those lines, I think that though it seems subtle, you've also made an extremely strong opinion implied that people cannot live with their mistakes (which is why you hope I'm "right"). But since everybody is different, then while you might have difficulty living with the decision I've made having an unfortunate outcome, I can live with that.

At that point though, we're getting into an entirely new topic beliefs/religion/spirituality/opinions and when we get there, it's impossible for any of us to accurately gauge how another person would feel in a certain situation when we don't have an intimate understanding of that person (such as in this case your assumption about me).
__________________
Peaceful_Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 06:14 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,035
Peaceful Warrior ,
My opinion is based on my belief .I had a child die from Hepatitis A and believe me I would have done anything to prevent that .
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 06:18 PM   #34
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
URL="http://www.hawaii.gov/health/family-child-health/immunization/school-health/school-health-faqs.html"]Hawaii Dept of Health[/URL]
OK, thanks, I see the religious and the "had chickenpox" exemptions. Not sure how a medical exemption would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
Would you feel bad if your child contracted a disease that you consciously avoided vaccination for, even if your child survived the disease with no permanent detrimental effects (physical nor emotional)?
Getting back to that "crossing the highway with a bag on my head" analogy, you bet I would. I'd also lose a lot of sleep worrying about the "what could've happened" and re-evaluate the hypothetical decision to not vaccinate my kid.

Our kid contracted chickenpox at the age of six months in early 1993, before any vaccine was available. Luckily she didn't know how to scratch, but I don't care to repeat the experience.

Our kid made up her own mind about the HPV vaccine. Arguably teens don't possess the critical-thinking brain cells (let alone the skills) to evaluate the statistical risks of being vaccinated or not, but she made the decision on the available numbers and the basis of whether or not it "felt right" for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful_Warrior View Post
When it comes to vaccinations, one thing that does concern me is early vaccinations before babies/infants have had a chance to strengthen their immune system. More and more doctors are promoting delayed vaccination... some as little as 6 months, and some as much as 5 years minimum.
I'd think that a vaccine would help avoid bad medical impacts while a baby is still developing an immune system, and I'm not sure that they'd be able to develop an immunity to the vaccination diseases in any other way.

You know why Hawaii makes a big fuss over the baby's first birthday? Because in the "good ol' days" not many of them survived for that ceremony...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 06:25 PM   #35
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
Here are some credible guides to immunization for adults.
Thank you for that link.

I'm planning on getting the ones suggested for adults. Should I get them a month or so apart? Or is there no problem with having two or three at one time?

Also, any guide for the shingles vaccine?
__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 06:43 PM   #36
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Flu shots save one life for every 200 recipients, mostly the old, the young and the ill but some healthy victims, too. Of course innumerable days of flu are also prevented, though it is not 100% effective (more like 88%). The shot lasts 6 months or so at a high level (highly individual), more than enough to get through flu season. The strains mutate annually which is why new vaccines are designed each year.

With typical prevalence rates, your chance of the flu if you have the vaccine is about 1.7% (13.5% without the vaccine).

Flu shot season is often "cold" season, so some people get colds shortly after their flu shot; it is unusual for the flu shot itself to cause symptoms and when it does, it usually lasts just a day or two. More commonly, people get the shot, then get a cold and forever after swear that the shot gave them the flu. If you've ever had the true influenze, you know that it is worse than a cold, and can be pretty debilitating. You can treat it with antivirals with some benefit, but generally we just let it run its course for patients who are not otherwise compromised.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 07:00 PM   #37
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,386
Thanks Rich.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 07:09 PM   #38
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
Peaceful Warrior ,
My opinion is based on my belief .I had a child die from Hepatitis A and believe me I would have done anything to prevent that .
And that is exactly my point - we're all different, we all have different experiences which lead us to where we are, and while you had that experience (which there is no guarantee the vaccine would have prevented), were I in your shoes I would have had a different set of beliefs and emotions.

Neither way is good nor bad, right nor wrong, just different. I too have lost somebody very close to me to disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
OK, thanks, I see the religious and the "had chickenpox" exemptions. Not sure how a medical exemption would work.
As far as I know, the medical exemption is typically for people who have auto-immune diseases for which vaccines would significantly compromise their immune system. That's hearsay though, I don't actually know first-hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Getting back to that "crossing the highway with a bag on my head" analogy, you bet I would. I'd also lose a lot of sleep worrying about the "what could've happened" and re-evaluate the hypothetical decision to not vaccinate my kid.
And that's where you and I differ. I would certainly re-evaluate my decisions and look at the events leading up to that experience, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. For me it's like that basketball saying, "No harm, no foul."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Our kid contracted chickenpox at the age of six months in early 1993, before any vaccine was available. Luckily she didn't know how to scratch, but I don't care to repeat the experience.
I had chickenpox at age 5 and it wasn't a big deal for me. Yes, lots of red things, lots of itches, and LOTS of baths... but all said and done, there were no lasting effects of any kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Our kid made up her own mind about the HPV vaccine. Arguably teens don't possess the critical-thinking brain cells (let alone the skills) to evaluate the statistical risks of being vaccinated or not, but she made the decision on the available numbers and the basis of whether or not it "felt right" for her.
In the end that's all we can do... base it on what "feels" right. Sometimes that feeling is more from our mind and analysis, sometimes from our past conditioning, and sometimes from what people refer to as intuition/guts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I'd think that a vaccine would help avoid bad medical impacts while a baby is still developing an immune system, and I'm not sure that they'd be able to develop an immunity to the vaccination diseases in any other way.
There's still a lot of discussion on that, and I'm hoping more research. However, there is a higher incidence of auto-immune diseases in the vaccinated population vs. non-vaccinated populations. [/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
You know why Hawaii makes a big fuss over the baby's first birthday? Because in the "good ol' days" not many of them survived for that ceremony...
Understandable. However, we both know we can't correlate that directly to vaccines, but rather, to a better overall population health (for which vaccines may or may not be a contributor).
__________________
Peaceful_Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 07:11 PM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,125
Rich, I saw some information - not sure of the source or the accuracy - relating to how the flu vaccine declined in effectiveness as one got older. Yet the elderly are one of the primary groups encouraged to get the vaccine. What gives?
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 07:26 PM   #40
Full time employment: Posting here.
Sandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 855
PW, you say that we need to all make the decision for ourselves, but as RIT pointed out, if many take your path, the risk increases. So, in effect, you are abdicating your role in protecting you and your family but essentially hoping that every one else chooses protection so that you and yours benefit indirectly.

Vaccines rank up there with the most effective and safe tools the entire medical community has - think sanitation, potable water, vaccines, and aspirin. Improving health through medical practice along with efforts to ensure widespread public health in a inexpensive manner - it doesn't get much more basic/cost effective than this.
__________________

__________________
I would not have anyone adopt my mode of living...but I would have each one be very careful to find out and pursue his own way, and not his father's or his mother's or his neighbor's instead. Thoreau, Walden
Sandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I heard 5 people get shot last weekend Keim Other topics 4 05-21-2007 05:46 PM
Flu shots? astromeria Health and Early Retirement 35 11-28-2006 11:09 PM
Bird Flu Surfdaddy Health and Early Retirement 6 11-18-2006 09:35 AM
Mel takes a pretty good Mug Shot............... Cut-Throat Other topics 28 08-02-2006 07:03 PM
Bird Flu Marshac Other topics 25 08-04-2005 03:42 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:55 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.