Flu Shot Question???

[Moemg]

Peaceful Warrior ,
Hepatits A is basically food poisoning so you can always be at risk .Remember the spinach problem that was hepatitis A and people die from it .In the Chi-Chi's(a mexican restaurant) case I believe four people died .It can cause severe liver failure .How can you be sure you are safe from that ?If you were vaccinated as a child and not since you probably have not been vaccinated for it .


Ps -Thanks Rich that was a great point

 

[Nords]

Definitely skipped them for our son. Getting the HepB at birth is not necessary for the majority of the population, despite the doctors' (or is it the CDC on this one, too?) "goal" to immunize 100% of the population. Our son can decide later in life if he wants to take the vaccines after he weighs the available information.
There may be information I've overlooked with regards to the hepatitis disease, complications vaccinations, general risks, and personal risk factors, so I'm open to any information you have as to why you feel that not vaccinating against these is a "huge risk."

Have you looked at those posters in the doctor's office showing photos of the kids afflicted with all those childhood diseases that your kid's not vaccinated against?

Ever had to deal with chicken pox? Shingles? Ever had to live with someone working through those viruses? As soon as the shingles vaccine is available to me I'm getting it. I don't care if it's one shot or a machine-gun clip, and my spouse probably doesn't care how many shots she has to put me through either. I get the flu vaccine every year as soon as I learn that it's available. If I could get the pneumonia shot I'd do that too.

As for "herd immunity", good luck with that. Submariners are vaccinated for just about every disease known to man (and one or two known only to farm animals) and yet one measly virus will take out an entire crew. When a submarine gets underway, for the first two weeks everyone is suffering from the sniffles (rotovirus). Eventually it clears up and everyone's fine... until the next liberty port. I've had bronchitis a dozen times, pneumonia several times, and I know many submariners who test positive for TB. Yet we probably have better demographics than your average urban apartment building.

Personally I wouldn't visit Hawaii without being vaccinated for both hepatitis A and B. And your kid can't go to public schools without certain vaccinations, but of course homeschooling avoids that issue.

This thread reminds me of TH's analogy of running across a 12-lane interstate with a paper bag over your head. If nothing bad happened the first time you tried it, would you do it again?

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

Have you looked at those posters in the doctor's office showing photos of the kids afflicted with all those childhood diseases that your kid's not vaccinated against?

Ever had to deal with chicken pox? Shingles? Ever had to live with someone working through those viruses? As soon as the shingles vaccine is available to me I'm getting it. I don't care if it's one shot or a machine-gun clip, and my spouse probably doesn't care how many shots she has to put me through either. I get the flu vaccine every year as soon as I learn that it's available. If I could get the pneumonia shot I'd do that too.

I've had chicken pox as a child and shingles as an adult.

As for "herd immunity", good luck with that. Submariners are vaccinated for just about every disease known to man (and one or two known only to farm animals) and yet one measly virus will take out an entire crew.

So you're saying that the vaccines don't help?

And your kid can't go to public schools without certain vaccinations, but of course homeschooling avoids that issue.

The public schools cannot legally deny children acceptance based solely on lack of vaccination. They may give a hard time, they may say you "can't" but the law says it's legal and provides for people by way of exemption.

That said, if our child was going to public school (or will be spending large amounts of time in daycares / etc) then we will re-evaluate the vaccine situation (if he's not yet old enough to do so himself).

This thread reminds me of TH's analogy of running across a 12-lane interstate with a paper bag over your head. If nothing bad happened the first time you tried it, would you do it again?

I don't think that is really analogous because it assumes that the choice not to vaccinate is an uneducated one, rather than a person taking in all available information and then making the decision they feel is right for themselves (not necessarily for others).

 

[Nords]

So you're saying that the vaccines don't help?

No, I'm saying that things are bad enough with the vaccines in an environment full of young healthy people. Without vaccines it'd be inoperable. I'm comparing my experience to urban "herds" who are probably not as healthy, well-fed, or sanitary and hypothecating how it'd be without vaccinations.

The public schools cannot legally deny children acceptance based solely on lack of vaccination. They may give a hard time, they may say you "can't" but the law says it's legal and provides for people by way of exemption.

That's an interesting opinion which, as far as I can tell from my non-professional perspective, isn't shared by the Hawaii public school system. Do you have any links or references to support your opinion?

I don't think that is really analogous because it assumes that the choice not to vaccinate is an uneducated one, rather than a person taking in all available information and then making the decision they feel is right for themselves (not necessarily for others).

I agree that the decision has an emotional "feels right" component as well as a quantitative component. Either basis is the correct foundation for making a decision, although personally I doubt I'd "feel right" if my kid contracted a disease that we consciously decided to avoid the vaccination for. Unfortunately there's only one way to test that.

However I think that deciding not to vaccinate based on a quantitative analysis is a decision that does not logically flow from the statistics or from evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't use the "uneducated" word but it'll be interesting to see what decision your kid makes when equipped with a similar set of data. Hopefully there are no adverse experiences before then.

 

[Moemg]

Peaceful Warrior ,
You have strong opinions about vaccinations and I hope you are right because if you are wrong it's going to be tough to live with !

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

That's an interesting opinion which, as far as I can tell from my non-professional perspective, isn't shared by the Hawaii public school system. Do you have any links or references to support your opinion?

Hawaii Dept of Health

Are exemptions from immunizations allowed?


Children may be exempt from immunization requirements for medical or religious reasons, if the appropriate documentation is presented to the school. Religious exemption forms may be completed at the school that your child will attend. Medical exemptions must be obtained from your child’s doctor. No other exemptions are allowed by the State.

I agree that the decision has an emotional "feels right" component as well as a quantitative component. Either basis is the correct foundation for making a decision, although personally I doubt I'd "feel right" if my kid contracted a disease that we consciously decided to avoid the vaccination for. Unfortunately there's only one way to test that.

Would you feel bad if your child contracted a disease that you consciously avoided vaccination for, even if your child survived the disease with no permanent detrimental effects (physical nor emotional)?

However I think that deciding not to vaccinate based on a quantitative analysis is a decision that does not logically flow from the statistics or from evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't use the "uneducated" word but it'll be interesting to see what decision your kid makes when equipped with a similar set of data. Hopefully there are no adverse experiences before then.

I agree that deciding only on quantitative analysis alone does not make sense, which is why I take into account personal risk factors (such as health, physical location, etc) and my own "feeling" (i.e. "Could I accept remedying TB after being exposed to it, or could I accept lock-jaw for as long as 6 months in a worst-case TB scenario?").

I too will be interested to see what decision my son comes to when he is old enough to choose for himself.

When it comes to vaccinations, one thing that does concern me is early vaccinations before babies/infants have had a chance to strengthen their immune system. More and more doctors are promoting delayed vaccination... some as little as 6 months, and some as much as 5 years minimum.

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

Peaceful Warrior ,
You have strong opinions about vaccinations and I hope you are right because if you are wrong it's going to be tough to live with !

I am in the minority in my opinions, but also in my research into the topic. Few people take the time to actually understand the risks associated with both vaccinating and not-vaccinating, and then also address the risks and issues from their own personal situation.

I don't advocate that all people take the path I have chosen because choosing what is right is different for each of us. I have a different level of acceptance to some things than others, and I have different fears than others.

Along those lines, I think that though it seems subtle, you've also made an extremely strong opinion implied that people cannot live with their mistakes (which is why you hope I'm "right"). But since everybody is different, then while you might have difficulty living with the decision I've made having an unfortunate outcome, I can live with that.

At that point though, we're getting into an entirely new topic beliefs/religion/spirituality/opinions and when we get there, it's impossible for any of us to accurately gauge how another person would feel in a certain situation when we don't have an intimate understanding of that person (such as in this case your assumption about me).

 

[Moemg]

Peaceful Warrior ,
My opinion is based on my belief .I had a child die from Hepatitis A and believe me I would have done anything to prevent that .

 

[Nords]

URL="http://www.hawaii.gov/health/family-child-health/immunization/school-health/school-health-faqs.html"]Hawaii Dept of Health[/URL]

OK, thanks, I see the religious and the "had chickenpox" exemptions. Not sure how a medical exemption would work.

Would you feel bad if your child contracted a disease that you consciously avoided vaccination for, even if your child survived the disease with no permanent detrimental effects (physical nor emotional)?

Getting back to that "crossing the highway with a bag on my head" analogy, you bet I would. I'd also lose a lot of sleep worrying about the "what could've happened" and re-evaluate the hypothetical decision to not vaccinate my kid.

Our kid contracted chickenpox at the age of six months in early 1993, before any vaccine was available. Luckily she didn't know how to scratch, but I don't care to repeat the experience.

Our kid made up her own mind about the HPV vaccine. Arguably teens don't possess the critical-thinking brain cells (let alone the skills) to evaluate the statistical risks of being vaccinated or not, but she made the decision on the available numbers and the basis of whether or not it "felt right" for her.

When it comes to vaccinations, one thing that does concern me is early vaccinations before babies/infants have had a chance to strengthen their immune system. More and more doctors are promoting delayed vaccination... some as little as 6 months, and some as much as 5 years minimum.

I'd think that a vaccine would help avoid bad medical impacts while a baby is still developing an immune system, and I'm not sure that they'd be able to develop an immunity to the vaccination diseases in any other way.

You know why Hawaii makes a big fuss over the baby's first birthday? Because in the "good ol' days" not many of them survived for that ceremony...

 

[Khan]

Here are some credible guides to immunization for adults.

Thank you for that link.

I'm planning on getting the ones suggested for adults. Should I get them a month or so apart? Or is there no problem with having two or three at one time?

Also, any guide for the shingles vaccine?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Flu shots save one life for every 200 recipients, mostly the old, the young and the ill but some healthy victims, too. Of course innumerable days of flu are also prevented, though it is not 100% effective (more like 88%). The shot lasts 6 months or so at a high level (highly individual), more than enough to get through flu season. The strains mutate annually which is why new vaccines are designed each year.

With typical prevalence rates, your chance of the flu if you have the vaccine is about 1.7% (13.5% without the vaccine).

Flu shot season is often "cold" season, so some people get colds shortly after their flu shot; it is unusual for the flu shot itself to cause symptoms and when it does, it usually lasts just a day or two. More commonly, people get the shot, then get a cold and forever after swear that the shot gave them the flu. If you've ever had the true influenze, you know that it is worse than a cold, and can be pretty debilitating. You can treat it with antivirals with some benefit, but generally we just let it run its course for patients who are not otherwise compromised.

 

[haha]

Thanks Rich.

Ha

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

Peaceful Warrior ,
My opinion is based on my belief .I had a child die from Hepatitis A and believe me I would have done anything to prevent that .

And that is exactly my point - we're all different, we all have different experiences which lead us to where we are, and while you had that experience (which there is no guarantee the vaccine would have prevented), were I in your shoes I would have had a different set of beliefs and emotions.

Neither way is good nor bad, right nor wrong, just different. I too have lost somebody very close to me to disease.

OK, thanks, I see the religious and the "had chickenpox" exemptions. Not sure how a medical exemption would work.

As far as I know, the medical exemption is typically for people who have auto-immune diseases for which vaccines would significantly compromise their immune system. That's hearsay though, I don't actually know first-hand.

Getting back to that "crossing the highway with a bag on my head" analogy, you bet I would. I'd also lose a lot of sleep worrying about the "what could've happened" and re-evaluate the hypothetical decision to not vaccinate my kid.

And that's where you and I differ. I would certainly re-evaluate my decisions and look at the events leading up to that experience, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. For me it's like that basketball saying, "No harm, no foul."

Our kid contracted chickenpox at the age of six months in early 1993, before any vaccine was available. Luckily she didn't know how to scratch, but I don't care to repeat the experience.

I had chickenpox at age 5 and it wasn't a big deal for me. Yes, lots of red things, lots of itches, and LOTS of baths... but all said and done, there were no lasting effects of any kind.

Our kid made up her own mind about the HPV vaccine. Arguably teens don't possess the critical-thinking brain cells (let alone the skills) to evaluate the statistical risks of being vaccinated or not, but she made the decision on the available numbers and the basis of whether or not it "felt right" for her.

In the end that's all we can do... base it on what "feels" right. Sometimes that feeling is more from our mind and analysis, sometimes from our past conditioning, and sometimes from what people refer to as intuition/guts.

I'd think that a vaccine would help avoid bad medical impacts while a baby is still developing an immune system, and I'm not sure that they'd be able to develop an immunity to the vaccination diseases in any other way.

There's still a lot of discussion on that, and I'm hoping more research. However, there is a higher incidence of auto-immune diseases in the vaccinated population vs. non-vaccinated populations. [/quote]

You know why Hawaii makes a big fuss over the baby's first birthday? Because in the "good ol' days" not many of them survived for that ceremony...

Understandable. However, we both know we can't correlate that directly to vaccines, but rather, to a better overall population health (for which vaccines may or may not be a contributor).

 

[REWahoo]

Rich, I saw some information - not sure of the source or the accuracy - relating to how the flu vaccine declined in effectiveness as one got older. Yet the elderly are one of the primary groups encouraged to get the vaccine. What gives?

 

[Sandy]

PW, you say that we need to all make the decision for ourselves, but as RIT pointed out, if many take your path, the risk increases. So, in effect, you are abdicating your role in protecting you and your family but essentially hoping that every one else chooses protection so that you and yours benefit indirectly.

Vaccines rank up there with the most effective and safe tools the entire medical community has - think sanitation, potable water, vaccines, and aspirin. Improving health through medical practice along with efforts to ensure widespread public health in a inexpensive manner - it doesn't get much more basic/cost effective than this.

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

PW, you say that we need to all make the decision for ourselves, but as RIT pointed out, if many take your path, the risk increases. So, in effect, you are abdicating your role in protecting you and your family but essentially hoping that every one else chooses protection so that you and yours benefit indirectly.

Not at all. I'm taking responsibility for myself and my family, and I'm educating myself about the risks of different courses of action for what is right for me here and now.

Life changes, people change, populations change. I'm open to the possibility that my ideas about this may change in the future based on a variety of factors (one of which could be whether or not the majority or minority of the population remains vaccinated).

Vaccines rank up there with the most effective and safe tools the entire medical community has - think sanitation, potable water, vaccines, and aspirin. Improving health through medical practice along with efforts to ensure widespread public health in a inexpensive manner - it doesn't get much more basic/cost effective than this.

That's under assumptions that people make with incomplete information, such as assuming that all vaccinations are equally effective (whereas the truth is that all vaccines have different effectiveness rates), and that all
members of a population will respond favorably to the vaccines (which we've already noted is not true because age does affect this), and the assumption that the majority of people who contract a vaccine will come down with the "worst" version of it (i.e. most people who get polio pass it as a flu without any hint of potential paralysis, and only a very small minority of the total infected population actually have permanent paralysis lasting more than 6 weeks).

People often take a lot of things for granted instead of educating themselves and then evaluating the situation for their own particular situation. In the future I will likely have to re-evaluate my current approach based on factors such as my age, my current state of health, how much of the general population vaccinates, etc.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Rich, I saw some information - not sure of the source or the accuracy - relating to how the flu vaccine declined in effectiveness as one got older. Yet the elderly are one of the primary groups encouraged to get the vaccine. What gives?

The "immunogenicity" of the stuff is its ability to cause your body to create flu antibodies. All other things being equal, your immune system ages just like the rest of your body, so your response will be less than that of a younger person. So you might say that your response to the vaccine wanes with age.

However, your benefit from even a partial response is greater since your risk of mortality and complications once you get the flu is higher. Less brisk response, but more benefit since your overall risk is much higher from the disease. Studies of death rates show only slight benefits in the elderly but I think this is an artifact due to most of the deaths being labeled pneumonia, heart failure and other diseases which are worsened by the flu.

Hope that helps. The evidence strongly supports a decision to get a flu shot if you're over 50.

 

[Buckeye]

Earlier in the thread, someone stated we know how vaccines work. I began to wonder about that when the experts started calling for boosters of vaccines we had as kids that were supposed to provide lifetime immunity. If we really understand how the vaccines work, how could we be so wrong about the lifetime immunity?

In a way, I feel lucky I had all the "normal" childhood diseases because that really does provide lifetime immunity (I think).

 

[martyb]

I've had a flu shot every year for as long as I can remember...most likely all 30 years I've been associated with the military. It's mandatory for military, we don't get to choose. I've also not had the flu in all those years. Coincidence? Who knows? I did contract Hepatitis A in 1991, and it sucked bad. Where did I get it? From my darling 9 year old daughter. Where did she get it? From the church run day care where she was enrolled. Besides the two of us, a 60+ year old daycare worker got the HepA too, and nearly died. Me....I just was wishing I could die for awhile. I was so ill I couldn't blink my eyes without heaving. My insides felt like I had been pumped full of air, even though I didn't eat a bite for at least five days. Some of the time, I crawled on the floor because I was too nauseaus to walk. That was after I could actually move off the bed. I mean, did I mention it sucked? I missed 10 days from work and received a phone call with about 100 questions from the state health department. I can never donate blood again, neither can my daughter. My 9 year old daughter, of course showed signs of jaundice, but otherwise she never missed a beat. No illness or anything. Yellow eyes and that's about it. Guess it was the age difference. Trust me, you don't want HepA or any other Heps either! Moemg, I'm truly sorry for your loss.

 

[haha]

Moemg, I'm truly sorry for your loss.

Add me to this condolelence. I can't think of anything worse for a parent to endure.

Ha

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

With a warm cyber-hug to Moemg, I am sure that I'm not the only one to remember polio and iron lungs, beaches closed during the summer for fear of contagion, and even a big blue letter "Q" for quarantine in the windows of certain houses in the neighborhood, iron lungs and that kid in the class who had to wear a leg brace and a built-up shoe just to walk after surviving the disease.

As a young physician I saw fatal cases of chickenpox pneumonia, measles pneumonia, whooping cough, rubella newborns and tetanus.

Since them we've added hepatitis A and B, h. influenza for kids, shingles, pneumococcal pneumonia and others. Maybe AIDS, malaria, and even some types of cancer will be the next diseases to fall to vaccines.

There is a reason that the smart philanthropic foundations usually aim at immunizing kids (and adults). Gates and Buffet know how to get bang for the buck.

 

[bright eyed]

i'm neither fully for vacci's or against..but I do have to wonder if it is such a good idea to have so many so soon for the kids...just as a mom it makes me feel a bit unnerved and i couldn't get through all the pro/con stuff w/out wanting to pass out trying to make sense of it.

 

[Elspeth]

Rich, I saw some information - not sure of the source or the accuracy - relating to how the flu vaccine declined in effectiveness as one got older. Yet the elderly are one of the primary groups encouraged to get the vaccine. What gives?

Well, they're among the most susceptible to flu, so even if the vaccine isn't as effective, it's better than not having it. I've been seeing reports over the last year or two that vaccinating children is a better strategy for preventing flu in older people than vaccinating the older people themselves, but I don't know how strongly supported that research is.

 

[Moemg]

Thanks Guys ,
I think a lot of people don't remember iron lungs and the days before these vaccines plus they do not know how deadly Hep A can be .My son contacted it and at first he just had flu symptoms then he quickly progressed to liver failure and died before he could have a transplant. A Parents worst nightmare .

 

[Sandy]

PW:

I think you are downplaying the personal and social costs of these diseases. My comments are not just off the cuff. FWIW, I have worked in a large state immunization program and in cooperation with the CDC in this area. Clearly, you have your opinion, to which you are entitled, but I stand by my view that vaccines are among the most cost effective, life prolonging interventions with the broadest public health impact developed by the medical community.

My sincerest sympathies to you and your family, Moemg.