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Old 11-21-2015, 09:44 AM   #21
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It's ironic that even when we are old ourselves, we still don't like old people.

Just think: if old people were still in the workplace, they would be getting counseled to "examine yourself for why people don't seem to like you, and try to adjust your attitude so you generate a more positive response." LOL

The co-op sounds like a good idea. Except that sooner or later, one old biddy or codger insists on controlling everything, and everyone else gives in because they no longer have the energy to resist.

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Great thread!

He even dislikes the 55+ communities in FL because "they are full of old people"...

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Old 11-21-2015, 09:53 AM   #22
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I'll pay for entry into one of those continual care places where you pay a big lump sum up front and a smaller monthly fee. I'd make sure it was one that was financially stable, and that does not evict a resident if said resident runs out of money.
My mother-in-law is considering such a place but it has a 10 year waiting list. She recently came up at the top and was offered a spot but she just wasn't ready to move yet. The unit was also way too large for her needs and she couldn't bring her dog.

I figure there are lots of people ahead of me that will need some sort of assisted care and either don't have or don't want to rely on relatives. I will watch what they do and perhaps some enterprising non FIREd person will make a business catering to our needs.
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:55 AM   #23
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I am in same boat as you W2R. A SO and a daughter but no assurances of not being alone and I have no intention of being any burden on my daughter at all. This sounds flippant, but I am being honest. I am stubborn and independent. I expect no one to take care of me and will fake independence until the end, by either doing without, or paying people to do things I need done.
I know that is no plan, but that is me, and I will do it all until the end, or way past the time I should have. And if I ever wind up in a "home" it will be with the added comment from someone "that he should have been in a home 5 years ago".
Sorry I don't have any advice to offer, but this is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Most likely, I'll have no relatives to take care of me, and I could outlive most of my friends. If I start loosing my marbles someday, I can't see myself having the will to move into some sort of assisted living facility. So old, alone and demented, I was wondering if there's any government agency that would step in and move me somewhere. From what I've found, that varies a lot state by state, but if you've become a danger to yourself or others, you could be put somewhere for evaluation. I imagine one would have to be pretty far gone for that to happen, and what happens next is pretty vague. Hopefully I'll have some trusted friend still around with power of attorney. I need to start making some younger friends!
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:27 AM   #24
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Sorry I don't have any advice to offer, but this is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Most likely, I'll have no relatives to take care of me, and I could outlive most of my friends. If I start loosing my marbles someday, I can't see myself having the will to move into some sort of assisted living facility. So old, alone and demented, I was wondering if there's any government agency that would step in and move me somewhere. From what I've found, that varies a lot state by state, but if you've become a danger to yourself or others, you could be put somewhere for evaluation. I imagine one would have to be pretty far gone for that to happen, and what happens next is pretty vague. Hopefully I'll have some trusted friend still around with power of attorney. I need to start making some younger friends!
Adult Protective Services - similar to Child Protective Services - steps in. If they can't find a family member or friend, the state takes over as guardian... and charges their services to the assets of the person.

At least that's how it works in Kentucky. My MIL had the same attitude of many here - didn't want to be a burden on her children, had a strong stubborn streak (that served her very well in her younger years), etc. The APS forced the issue of guardianship - and if no family member had been willing, the state would have appointed a hired gun to be her guardian. It was a big blow to have a full trial with doctors and social workers declaring her incompetent.... She still has a lot of anger about it.

Think long and hard about the "not wanting to be a burden"... It didn't defer the burden - just added a legal trial to declare her incompetent into the mix... a big emotional and expensive hassle. It would have been much better to have a transition over time - setting up the paperwork (POA) while still competent, so the child doesn't have to try and figure it all out after the fact.

This doesn't help the child free folks, though... but it's something to think about for the folks who have kids but have stated they don't want to be a burden. If you leave it too long - the hassle factor for the adult child grows significantly.
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:55 AM   #25
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Being in this category myself, I'm interested to hear what the few members who are not married or in a relationship and have no kids have in mind later when their health gets to the point that those hard decisions need to be made.

Do you plan to hire some type of advocate? Other options?
While I'm a safe distance from the decision time I do want to start generating some thoughts.


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The majority of readers on this forum are in the same boat as you. The only ones that are not are those with a child or two that are self sufficient, loving and trustworthy. I am thinking that there are just a few of these lucky people.

DW and I have no children. Things are not looking good when we consider the nieces and nephews as candidates. They are not interested in helping out or visiting grandmaw now.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:10 AM   #26
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It's ironic that even when we are old ourselves, we still don't like old people.
Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.

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My mother-in-law is considering such a place but it has a 10 year waiting list. She recently came up at the top and was offered a spot but she just wasn't ready to move yet. The unit was also way too large for her needs and she couldn't bring her dog.

I figure there are lots of people ahead of me that will need some sort of assisted care and either don't have or don't want to rely on relatives. I will watch what they do and perhaps some enterprising non FIREd person will make a business catering to our needs.
Dang. We had better go get on a waiting list. You are probably right about the business, but sometimes it seems to me like everybody wants to make a fortune off the baby boomers if they can.

What I'd rather avoid is the possible situation, when living alone, that nobody is checking on me at all. I could see myself becoming unable to get out of bed, and just lying there starving to death and dying of thirst, all by myself. I can think of other ways I'd rather go than that.

Another possible situation to avoid is becoming completely loonie due to Alzheimers, and wandering around town, getting lost, getting mugged, and dying in a gutter from a blow to the head from someone who only wanted my wallet.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:12 AM   #27
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Back in 2008 when I was 45, a few months before I ERed, I had an estate lawyer create a will, POA, and HCP for me. Single and childfree, I named my ladyfriend of 4 years (now 11 years) and my younger brother (married, with a kid, and wealthier than me) to look out for me in case I can't make decisions for myself.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:18 AM   #28
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Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.





What I'd rather avoid is the possible situation, when living alone, that nobody is checking on me at all. I could see myself becoming unable to get out of bed, and just lying there starving to death and dying of thirst, all by myself. I can think of other ways I'd rather go than that.

Another possible situation to avoid is becoming completely loonie due to Alzheimers, and wandering around town, getting lost, getting mugged, and dying in a gutter from a blow to the head from someone who only wanted my wallet.

I'm glad to see another person who has these horrible scenarios floating around in their brain!



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Old 11-21-2015, 11:28 AM   #29
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I agree with those who have observed that marriage and children do not necessarily solve this problem. My father was married twice and outlived both of his wives. With the second wife, my step mother, who was 8 years older than him, they structured their home, lifestyle and estate plan around the assumption that he would die first and she would live on for years. But that's not what happened.

As for children, he had four sons, but we all lived hours away from him. We all tried to visit as much as we could, especially in the months prior to his death, but ultimately we relied on personal support workers who visited a few hours a day, made his dinner, and ran his errands. He actually came to like this because it gave him just enough company and structure he needed while being able to live in his own home.

The experience taught me the importance of getting in front of this issue early, especially as I am on my own, but as I am now 51 hopefully I won't have to make the decisions for a while.


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Old 11-21-2015, 11:35 AM   #30
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I'm glad to see another person who has these horrible scenarios floating around in their brain!
Yeah!!! Frank says that the reason why we are always looking towards the future, planning pretty far out, and looking for flaws in our plans, is that this was drummed into us in engineering school. I don't know if he's right or not, but as soon as my retirement plans fell into place and no longer needed my attention, I started thinking about old age.

At least I have my elderly friendly house, now. I think I'll be set for now, so that gives me time to think through and prepare for these unlikely but potentially horrible scenarios.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:48 AM   #31
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One was for Fiduciary services - and not just for financial advisor roles. A professional fiduciary can act like a 'general contractor' in construction, coordinating and in charge of ALL aspects relating to an individual in retirement
What are these people called? How do I look for one in the phone book? (I realize titles may vary by State...?)

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If they can't find a family member or friend, the state takes over as guardian... and charges their services to the assets of the person.
On another thread (maybe another board) recently there was something about having close by and readily retrievable by the cops, ambulance team, or landlord, a list of people to notify and some directions to tie up loose ends.

This would work in the event of unexpected incapacitation, coma, or dementia that has simply gotten out in front of you.

Neighbor calls police. "The old guy who lives down the block is wandering around in the snow."

Cops pick you up, take you to "General Hospital" for evaluation. You are declared "Unsafe at any speed."

I am sure at that point they will go through your stuff to find some ID and points-of-contact.

They will also find that list you were thoughtful enough to print out 10 years ago.

The they will appoint a social worker/attorney type to make notifications and , if you are like me and the Original Poster, start closing your accounts, selling the car and house if applicable. throwing out what's in the house/apartment. Then, since no one else gets any remaining funds, they will be dispersed to whatever nursing home they send you to OR just go to the general fund and they will pay for you stay via taxes. However it's structured in that State, county, Town.

As long as they have something to go on it should settle itself out. As far as getting into a GOOD home vs a "tax payer funded" one.....? If you stipulate that in your instructions and their investigation shows you have the money for at least a couple of years stay in a good facility, there is at least a fair to good chance they will accommodate you since you won't be glomming up the county run nursing home. Lawyers will handle any transfer of funds access to accounts etc. It's not like you'll be needing the money when you get out.

And this is only --IF-- you completely zero-out. How many people actually die like that? Most people probably go either with some time to get this crap together on their own terms, OR drop dead suddenly in an uncomplicated manner. Loose ends will still need to be tied up but your "Little List" should cover all that and help the Social workers clear it up. Your ongoing needs and care are no longer a factor.




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Old 11-21-2015, 12:02 PM   #32
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What are these people called? How do I look for one in the phone book? (I realize titles may vary by State...?)
Search for Professional Fiduciary.

In CA, there is the Professional Fiduciary Association of California
www.pfac-pro.org
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:52 PM   #33
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I
One was for Fiduciary services - and not just for financial advisor roles. A professional fiduciary can act like a 'general contractor' in construction, coordinating and in charge of ALL aspects relating to an individual in retirement who has set up a Trust and the 'trigger' has been pulled on POA due to the conditions set out in the Trust. These roles can cover Advanced Health Care Directives, financial management but also day to day decisions for quality of life.

The Fiduciary can work with LTCI providers if needed as well, if a policy is in force, and also a Geriatric Care Manager for daily activities.

There could be instances where family may not be local, or may not want to act in the role of decision maker.
Interesting option BBQ-nut. Any idea how much would this cost? Is it a fixed one time or periodic fee or something like "percent of assets under management"?

Has anyone tried this approach or know of someone who has?

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Old 11-21-2015, 01:06 PM   #34
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Interesting option BBQ-nut. Any idea how much would this cost? Is it a fixed one time or periodic fee or something like "percent of assets under management"?

Has anyone tried this approach or know of someone who has?

FB
Well, the Prof Fiduciary who gave the presentation did give several examples of clients she functions as their fiduciary, and she had, of course, her card available for those interested after the presentation.

But, I do not have any experience.

She did say that fees vary: some will do a fixed fee, but most in CA will charge a % of assets under management.

But the roles of a fiduciary can encompass: trustee, executor, conservator, and administrator (for asset management, record keeping, distributions, taxes, etc).

It is something we are considering as a contingent trustee in the event our first choice of family member decides to resign as our named trustee.
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:28 PM   #35
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If on-line discussions are anything to go by, this "seeming" disappears when old people live together in groups. Apparently they don't bother being as nice to each other as they are to little girls. Also, everybody has already heard all the stories, and/or lived them.

Oh well, age will come to us all eventually, and the sensible thing seems to be to surround ourselves with others like ourselves;, who get what we are going through; so we'd better get used to old people while we can.

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Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.

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Old 11-21-2015, 01:59 PM   #36
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After the experience of dealing with FIL who stayed in his house far too long because he wanted to be "independent" (he wasn't, really, DW was taking care of it and him) and my mother who moved to a CCRC and it worked out wonderfully for her we decided to do likewise.

So we're on a waiting list for one in PA, and we have all the paperwork done, we are POA and such for each other and DW's nephew is the backup. While I do have a niece that I would trust, she has some serious health issues and may well pass before I do.

The CCRC that we signed up for is mostly single-family homes, all built with elderly in mind - no stairs, wide doorways, ect. They do have independent living apartments and assisted living and dementia wards too, but make an effort to keep people in the independent home/apartment for as long as possible. We've toured the place, FIL was in a nursing home run by the same group and we were impressed with them. While there is a $200k+ entrance fee depending on house or apartment, they also promise that if funds are exhausted they won't throw you out. That's crucial for us because most of our income is my pension. If I stroke out and go to a nursing home that would leave DW with virtually nothing when funds were exhausted. This way even if that happens she'll have a decent place to live and other decent people around her.
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:15 PM   #37
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I will stay in my own house, and hire people to care for me. When I am no longer to think rationally, I will have (children, friends, paid advisor) who will make the correct decisions, and I will accept those decisions.

The challenge with this line of thinking is that you believe that you can control the situation and the outcomes. It is nice to have a plan, but life doesn't always follow your plan. Nobody wants to die in 'one of those places', but it really isn't your choice, in most cases. We don't want to have our hard earned money evaporate to a place that charges $10 for an aide to walk you to the dining room. We don't want our home health care folks taking the pain medications out of the bottle and replacing them with tylenol.

The best we can do is recognize that we may have limitations in the future. Make the plan that makes sense, share it with your (children, friends, document it for a potential advisor). Put yourself in a position where the plan has a chance of success. Move to a location and home that you can age in. Someplace where it is easy for others to check in on you. A place where community services like meals on wheels or shuttle services can get to you.

There is an organization that DWs parents went through. They have plans that handle most any situation. At one level, they have duplexes (maybe even single family) places. Next, independent living apartments. Then smaller apartments with a meal plan and housekeeping. Then apartments with nursing care as needed, then complete care. Once you are in the system, there is a structure in place for the transition to the next level. They also have financial guardianship available.

I would trust them with our future. The key is- will we make the decision to move into that system while we still are in control of our faculties? Or will we become stubborn and stay to long where we are now such that it becomes a debacle?
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:17 PM   #38
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I simply refuse to be a burden on my daughter at all. .
While there is no way I would want to impose on my son's life to the extent of actually living with him and his family or needing him to do something for me everyday, I would expect him to spend an hour a month, or so, checking my finances to ensure I'm not being ripped off and visit once a week if I'm in a home.

We're doing this for my MIL right now and it's not overwhelming for us at all. We'd be disappointed if she didn't allow us to help in this way.

I wonder what you mean by "be a burden?"
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:33 PM   #39
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Probably. Moving to the tiny place is a flat-out admission that the end is nigh, your striving was all in vain, all fun is now at an end and there's no going back. As a rational person with a normal ego, you will put off that admission until the decision is made for you.

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Then smaller apartments with a meal plan and housekeeping. Then apartments with nursing care as needed, then complete care. Once you are in the system, there is a structure in place for the transition to the next level. They also have financial guardianship available.

Or will we become stubborn and stay to long where we are now such that it becomes a debacle?
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:43 PM   #40
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Probably. Moving to the tiny place is a flat-out admission that the end is nigh, your striving was all in vain, all fun is now at an end and there's no going back. As a rational person with a normal ego, you will put off that admission until the decision is made for you.

Being just 51, I may be a bit clouded about elderly frailty. But I did experience it with my elderly neighbors (both 86). For several years they had been planning a move to an independent care apartment facilitated with a nursing home. Last November they told me it was time. "You need to go on your own terms, before someone makes you go. Its time..."
I told her... You aren't going to like it and its going to be a big mistake. Fight it until you cant fight anymore is what I told them. Well fast forward 2 months as the house hadnt sold yet, and guess who is moving back in their old house? Yep, they returned to fight... Couldn't stand being around all the crazy people and didn't know who was sane or crazy is what they said. They have made it almost a year now since they moved back and are still making it.
I see myself in them....


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