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Old 01-25-2011, 02:18 PM   #121
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Can you give some examples of FAT that provides good calories beside fish fat which I'd agree is good?
Lard. (Did you read the Thread? See Post 104)

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Alcohol is neutral as far as calorie intake goes? Wow, maybe it's time to take a few shots of vodka. Or like one important manager at GM (I worked in her household a long time ago) used to drink a bottle of white wine EVERY night to alleviate her stress....and she was in a reasonable shape (not overweight). So, apart from detriment (my assumption) to her liver, it seems she didn't gain weight from drinking.
Not quite what I said. I said "Neutral" as far as the Good Carb, Bad Carb discussion is concerned. I did point out the problem with weight loss that Alcohol presents.

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The only thing I agree with so far is carbs.
So, in general do you (anyone) agree with the book and would you recommend reading it? Who sponsored his research?
Again, have you read the Thread?
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Old 01-25-2011, 02:26 PM   #122
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[been in enough] underdeveloped calorie constrained environments to doubt that for most people, calorie restriction will suffice to keep them thin.
We are in agreement here, because the situation I'm talking about is voluntary calorie restriction. I'm convinced that simple calorie restriction usually doesn't work because your body eventually demands that you eat more. But in the calorie-constrained environments you talk about, one doesn't have the option of eating more.

IOW, if you put a guy in a cage and restrict his calories, he will lose weight and keep it off as long as you keep him in the cage; the diet will work 100% of the time. But in the real world, he's going to end up eating more at some point.

When your body thinks it's starving (even if it's carrying 300 pounds of fat), it will take control.
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Old 01-25-2011, 02:34 PM   #123
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I noticed another time that 1/2 an apple with ~ 1TB of peanut butter seemed to make a huge difference for me. I simply was not hungry, even an hour after I would normally be.
I tried to explain that in Post #97 but I'll try again.

USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference gives a 3" Medium Apple w/Skin:

Total Carbs = 25.13 Grams
Dietary Fiber = 4.37 G
Sugar = 18.91 G
Est. Net Carbs = 20.76 G

My Jar of Adams 100% Natural (read as no Sugar) gives a 2 Tablespoon Portion:

Total Carbs = 6 Grams
Dietary Fiber = 2 G
Sugar = 1 G
Est. Net Carbs = 4 Grams

In light of what I've said in the last few posts, you can see that an Apple is almost all Sugar and Peanut Butter is almost all Fat & Protein. So guess why you weren't hungry.

See below the complete nutritional data for both of these items. BTW, Peanuts and Peanut Butter are not really considered "Good Guys" in a Low-Carb Diet -- acceptable but with caution.

Apple-1.JPG Apple-2.JPG

PB-1.JPG PB-2.JPG
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:50 PM   #124
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I don't find it helpful at all. It's polemics, not reasoning. Taubes and fathead have decided what the truth is, and their only interest is in convincing us that they are right. Fathead tells us that Taubes wrote 2 chapters on thermodynamics, apparently thinking this should be persuasive. Twice as persuasive, I guess, as if he had written just one chapter. So what? Doesn't it matter what was in the chapters?
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:45 PM   #125
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Here is a Blog Post that may help:

Fat Head » Fat Accounts And The Laws of FiscalDynamics



He then goes on for a somewhat lengthy bit and you may (as with the video) elect to skip it but, if you do read it, you will have a much better understanding (IMHO).
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I don't find it helpful at all. It's polemics, not reasoning.
I agree with GregLee. I'll go further and say that I'm shocked that anyone would present that blog post to defend Taube. That was the most convoluted 'reasoning' I've ever seen. That's exactly the kind of 'reasoning' that make me discount Taubes, not believe in him.

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Old 01-25-2011, 09:48 PM   #126
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RE: Half an Apple + Peanut Butter seems more filling than a whole Apple.
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I tried to explain that in Post #97 but I'll try again.


In light of what I've said in the last few posts, you can see that an Apple is almost all Sugar and Peanut Butter is almost all Fat & Protein. So guess why you weren't hungry.
Thanks, I understand that. I was just commenting on my personal observation of it.

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Old 01-25-2011, 10:08 PM   #127
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We are in agreement here, because the situation I'm talking about is voluntary calorie restriction. I'm convinced that simple calorie restriction usually doesn't work because your body eventually demands that you eat more. But in the calorie-constrained environments you talk about, one doesn't have the option of eating more.

IOW, if you put a guy in a cage and restrict his calories, he will lose weight and keep it off as long as you keep him in the cage; the diet will work 100% of the time. But in the real world, he's going to end up eating more at some point.

When your body thinks it's starving (even if it's carrying 300 pounds of fat), it will take control.
Yes; this is how I see it also. I believe there is one other factor too. Plenty of people in wealthy nations are slim on a more average diet (though perhaps with a lot less junk). You before low carbing were one example, and me another. My 28 year old son drinks porter and ale and and has a sedentary job. Though he has no interest in low carb, he has about 7% body fat.

I started low carb for blood sugar management issues, not weight loss. However, I do think that if an American has weight issues, low carbing is a much easier and surer way to loss weight and keep it off than weight watchers, for example. Though many pople do pretty well at weight watchers, as long as they are willing to consider it a life style involving repeated diets rather than a one shot permanent cure.

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Old 01-26-2011, 08:17 AM   #128
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I don't find it helpful at all. It's polemics, not reasoning. Taubes and fathead have decided what the truth is, and their only interest is in convincing us that they are right. Fathead tells us that Taubes wrote 2 chapters on thermodynamics, apparently thinking this should be persuasive. Twice as persuasive, I guess, as if he had written just one chapter. So what? Doesn't it matter what was in the chapters?
Bolded is exactly what I thought. Well, the guy will earn royalties and will enlighten discussions among people about fit bodies and souls.

OK, now I'm going to read the whole thread
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:02 AM   #129
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I don't find it helpful at all. It's polemics, not reasoning.
Well, yeah. And it was presented as such. I am sorry it wasn't useful to you and that it appears to have closed this discussion.

polemics [pəˈlɛmɪks]
n (functioning as singular) the art or practice of dispute or argument, as in attacking or defending a doctrine or belief


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Taubes and fathead have decided what the truth is, and their only interest is in convincing us that they are right.
So? That is, after all, their mission... their job.

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Fathead tells us that Taubes wrote 2 chapters on thermodynamics, apparently thinking this should be persuasive. Twice as persuasive, I guess, as if he had written just one chapter. So what? Doesn't it matter what was in the chapters?
He is, I admit, preaching to the Choir and I would imagine that he assumed that his audience would have read the two Chapters whole rather than for him to repeat them... or even have a need to. Nor is reading those two Chapters that important to understanding his analogy, actually.

In any event, this is beyond my ability to persuade since I cannot put it any better than this Comment:

Quote:
Rahul says:
January 25, 2011 at 3:39 am
Hahaha, great post, I liked this argument especially, it wasn’t too complex. Although but I’m pretty sure if you are intending this argument or example towards those critics that think you and Gary Taubes don’t have a grasp of thermodynamics, I would say it might be a little over their head and waste of your precious time I mean clearly most of these critics that come up with these one-line arguments like “There is no question that the science of nutrition needs critical review, but Taubes is just wrong. Calories-in-calories-out is the law of thermodynamics.” clearly haven’t read two words from either of Taube’s books or they would know there are chapters on thermodynamics in both of his books lol. Critics like those are true believers or “following the money” so they will probably ignore any intellectual arguments like the one above by probably putting up the label “This argument is too complicated to keep track off” (just like those government officials that shut down the re-evaluation of the lipid hypothesis ) But anyways great read as always, hope you are having a great start to 2011.

Kind Regards

Rahul
But you had already read that...
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:17 AM   #130
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I started low carb for blood sugar management issues, not weight loss.
This, too, was my motivation, the weight issue was more of an after thought... no, an awakening.

In any event, I can't stress strongly the importance of the A1c and Hemoglobin tests. I would even go further and say that should be one of the first steps in everyone's healthcare. Type 2 Diabetes is not something anyone should mess with. When your body loses it's ability to produce the proper amount of Insulin to fight off the Carb assault, there is no going back... and, furthermore, any damge to that system cannot be repaired. (No, I do not have Diabetes (nor Pre-diabetes) but research showed a risk I was unwilling to accept.)

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Though many pople do pretty well at weight watchers, as long as they are willing to consider it a life style involving repeated diets rather than a one shot permanent cure.
I am rather amused that WW has admitted they were wrong all those years and that the "New" WW is an attempt to be more like Atkins.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:40 AM   #131
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Well, yeah. And it was presented as such.
It was presented as polemics? Actually, you recommended it because, you wrote, "if you do read it, you will have a much better understanding (IMHO)."
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:45 AM   #132
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It was presented as polemics? Actually, you recommended it because, you wrote, "if you do read it, you will have a much better understanding (IMHO)."
Oh! You were attacking me.

I have already (many times) admitted I have no defense for my ramblings.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:59 AM   #133
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It's simple, really...

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:21 AM   #134
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It's simple, really...


There are several other videos you reminded me of:





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Old 01-27-2011, 08:45 AM   #135
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Sounds like you can cherry pick the studies to prove any point of view.

8 reasons carbs help you lose weight - Healthy Living on Shine

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Eating carbs makes you thin for life
A recent multi-center study found that the slimmest people also ate the most carbs, and the chubbiest ate the least. The researchers concluded that your odds of getting and staying slim are best when carbs make up to 64% of your total daily caloric intake, or 361 grams.

That's the equivalent of several stuffed baked potatoes (a food we bet you've been afraid to eat for decades).

Most low-carb diets limit you to fewer than 30% of total calories from carbs and sometimes contain as few as 30 grams of carbohydrates a day.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:02 AM   #136
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If you are overweight, there is a simple solution to interpreting all of the articles, hype, studies, and videos. Instead of arguing, try low carb and see if it works for you. No multi-million-dollar 500-subject study in the world can be more important or relevant than your own.

Whether it works for you is the only important criterion. Everyone's different. You could try an Atkins diet for a month. If you're prediabetic, get a free blood glucose meter and see how it affects your blood sugar. Don't forget to take "before" photos and measure your waist, cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, thighs, and arms before you start.

Here are the results of my study on myself:



It may be tough, but you can probably suffer through a month of rib-eye steaks, lobster, bacon and eggs, prime rib, crab, sausage, ribs, filet mignon, and macadamia nuts.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:04 AM   #137
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So interesting! Whatever the truth of any of this may be, I predict that Taubes' gospel will fall by the wayside over time. He is too self-effacing, too easy going, and not good enough on the tube or dealing with constant shoutover interruption.

Also, he can write about anything. Since his income is not really tied to being a successful diet guru, or a weight loss doctor, and since he does not appear to be a natural marketer, he'll get tired of being slammed and TV will get tired of him.

I went to one of his talks, and hung around after and talked with him. Great guy, but I've met gurus, and taubes is no guru. ( To his credit, IMO)

Ha
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:06 AM   #138
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There are several other videos you reminded me of:
After watching the first two of these videos, the principle source of disagreement is, in my opinion, the failure to keep separate the best strategy for gaining/losing weight from the question of what causes groups of people (other than dieters) to gain/lose weight. Supposing Taubes is right that too many carbohydrates is the central cause of obesity, it doesn't follow that reducing carbohydrates is the best strategy for dieters. I'm not saying that it isn't the best strategy --- I'm just saying that it doesn't follow (which is close to what Weil was saying, I think).
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:37 AM   #139
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It may be tough, but you can probably suffer through a month of rib-eye steaks, lobster, bacon and eggs, prime rib, crab, sausage, ribs, filet mignon, and macadamia nuts.
T-Al, you forgot to mention the other 'substitutes' you gave in another post:

Carb Food, Substitute
Chips, Pork Rinds
Pasta, Dreamfields Pasta
Waffles, Same made with CarbQuik
Pancakes, Same made with CarbQuik
Biscuits, Same made with CarbQuik
Chocolate, Chocolate made with artificial sweetener or Chocoperfection
Cranberry Sauce, Cranberry Sauce made with artificial sweetener
Beer, Michelob Ultra
Milk, Michelob Ultra, A&W Diet Root beer
Bread, Oopsies
Cake and Cookies, Waffles with 0-carb syrup and butter or brownies made with CarbQuik
Mashed potatoes, Cauliflower mash with lots of heavy cream and butter


Those don't sound as appealing as the steak/lobster you 'cherry picked'. And I'll say it again, calling 'Michelob Ultra' as a substitute for 'beer' is a criminal act!

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Old 01-27-2011, 10:41 AM   #140
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If you are overweight, there is a simple solution to interpreting all of the articles, hype, studies, and videos. Instead of arguing, try low carb and see if it works for you. No multi-million-dollar 500-subject study in the world can be more important or relevant than your own.

Whether it works for you is the only important criterion. Everyone's different. You could try an Atkins diet for a month. If you're prediabetic, get a free blood glucose meter and see how it affects your blood sugar. Don't forget to take "before" photos and measure your waist, cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, thighs, and arms before you start.

Here are the results of my study on myself:



It may be tough, but you can probably suffer through a month of rib-eye steaks, lobster, bacon and eggs, prime rib, crab, sausage, ribs, filet mignon, and macadamia nuts.
My waistline number doesn't even appear on your chart, so this is of no value at all to me.
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