Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-14-2015, 09:15 PM   #61
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
JoeWras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,518
OK, I just discovered something. I know computers, but I don't know squat about genetics. When Steeleyman was talking about MySQL and Postgres, I was on it! Bu this hexaploid, tetraploid, whatever stuff is WAY over my head.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
__________________

__________________
JoeWras is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-14-2015, 09:43 PM   #62
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
OK, it seems a bit 'out there' to say that wheat went from 6 genes to 24 genes in a few hundred years, but I'm not following the response .., can this be broken down into something closer to layman's language?

-ERD50
It's a thing called polyploidy, related to the number of sets of chromosomes in a cell. Us humans have mostly 'diploid' cells, which have two sets of our chromosomes in them. Gamete cells (egg and sperm) have one set of chromosomes, and when they combine, form a new cell with two sets of chromosomes in them.

It's possible to have the 'ploidy' increase in a genetic, or germ line. This is one way evolutionary change can occur. In the case of wheat, two diploid grasses were genetically 'crossed' and wound up with four sets of chromosomes in each cell, two from each diploid 'parent' strain. With four sets of chromosomes, the cell is considered to be tetraploid. This happens naturally, and produced emmer wheat. (Durum wheat was bred from emmer, and also has tetraploid cells.)

The modern spelt and bread wheats were hybridized in farmer's fields with a related plant, Tausch's goatgrass. The goatgrass has diploid cells with two sets of chromosomes, which combined with the four sets in the durum or emmer wheat to result in a hybrid with six sets of chromosomes, or hexaploid cells.

The polyploid cells have the genetic machinery from both parent strains present, and actively guiding the construction of all sorts of interesting molecules. This is what gives the plants traits from all their parent strains.

Polyploidy occurs naturally. It's not a result of scientists, mad or otherwise, tinkering with genomes. The tetraploid emmer wheat likely originated while we were still trying to figure out how to bang the rocks together.

We humans even have polyploid cells within our body. Some glial tissues in the brain have been found to include tetraploid and octoploid cells. Salivary glands are chock full of polyploid cells. Adult human myocardium is around 60% tetraploid cells. There's some speculation that this occurs as cell growth is arrested in the middle of the cellular replication cycle.

Executive summary: Biology is weird.
__________________

__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2015, 09:50 PM   #63
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,828
Ack! I must to you paquette!

I blew the number 42 not 24, and I said genes instead of chromosome

The point was it has had the crap hybridized out of it, so we ain't in Kansas any more, Toto!
__________________
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2015, 10:25 PM   #64
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational View Post
Ack! I must to you paquette!

I blew the number 42 not 24, and I said genes instead of chromosome

The point was it has had the crap hybridized out of it, so we ain't in Kansas any more, Toto!
OK, but most of our domestic crops and animals have 'had the crap hybridized out of' them. But does that mean that the way we digest them is significantly different?

Our modern homes bear almost no resemblance to whatever shelter our ancestors had 10,000 years ago. Yet, there probably isn't a whole lot of difference in our response to hypothermia. Our primate relatives are probably close to as vulnerable as we are to cold temperatures.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 08:54 AM   #65
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,415
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette View Post
Um. Actually, modern hexaploid wheat has an estimated estimated 164,000 to 334,000 genes, from 16,000,000,000 base pairs. As a hexaploid cell, wheat cells contain six copies of each of its seven chromosomes, for 42 chromosomes total. I don't think it was fully sequenced until just a couple years ago.

The earliest einkorn wheat was diploid. Emmer and durum wheats are derived from wild emmer, a tetraploid plant that was a cross between two diploid wild grasses, one of which was a goatgrass. Oh, and emmer came along long before us monkeyboys started banging the genomes together. The modern tetraploid wheats are crosses between emmer or durum wheat and Tausch's goatgrass, which adds it's genome to make modern wheat.

So, yaay goatgrass! You're baking with it.


(More info in "Plant Evolution and the Origin of Crop Species", James F. Hancock, 2004)
Cool. Thank you.
__________________
6miths is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 11:18 AM   #66
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
OK, but most of our domestic crops and animals have 'had the crap hybridized out of' them. But does that mean that the way we digest them is significantly different?
I'm obviously no expert...I can't spell most of this stuff (LOL!), but I have been lead to believe that a) a good fraction of a plant's genetic instructions are used to define how proteins are folded, b) modern wheat has a super large fraction of relatively 'new' genetic instructions, and c) many humans have issues with digestion of the proteins in modern wheat. I'm not sure how many other highly hybridized plants have as wide a variety of proteins as wheat does, but if the answer to that question is "a lot" or "most", and we are not sensitive to those, well, then that blows my arguement.

One molecule that we didn't "grow-up" with is hydrogenated oil. Our bodies don't know how to manage that stuff, since it's synthetic. I'm not saying the extra protiens in modern wheat are synthetic, but we didn't grow-up with them. Maybe they're harmless (well, harmless to most non-gluten sensitive people except for the insuline spikes of varying degrees). Maybe a fish gene in a tomato is harmless. Maybe not. So I don't know if the way we digest these things is significantly different. That's a hard question.
__________________
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 01:51 PM   #67
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational View Post
I'm obviously no expert...I can't spell most of this stuff (LOL!), but I have been lead to believe that a) a good fraction of a plant's genetic instructions are used to define how proteins are folded, b) modern wheat has a super large fraction of relatively 'new' genetic instructions, and c) many humans have issues with digestion of the proteins in modern wheat. I'm not sure how many other highly hybridized plants have as wide a variety of proteins as wheat does, but if the answer to that question is "a lot" or "most", and we are not sensitive to those, well, then that blows my arguement.
The complex, 'long' proteins break down quickly in the dilute hydrochloric acid, pepsin, and trypsin in our digestive tract, a process called hydrolysis. They all turn into the base amino acids that can make it across the membranes of the intestines into the bloodstream. The exact time it takes to break them down varies with the type of protein and a bunch of other conditions.

While these long chains of amino acids that make up proteins are being digested, there are intermediate products, shorter chains that have been cut by hydrolysis but not yet reduced all the way to amino acids. These are called polypeptides or peptides. It turns out that there are specific peptides, nine amino acids long, produced from breakdown of wheat proteins, that expose antigenic sites that were buried in the wheat proteins before hydrolysis.

In some people, these specific polypeptides can trigger an antigenic, or immune response. That's a food allergy. Gluten is one of many proteins that can produce polypeptides that can trigger an immune response in some people.

It's actually the short peptide chains that cause the trouble. If they make it into the bloodstream, helped through the intestinal membranes by drugs like aspirin or by exercise, they can trigger immune responses elsewhere in the body of allergic persons, such as hives!

(I'm not a doctor. Contents of this post are meant for educational and discussion purpose only and should not, in any case, be substituted for a medical consultation. The information posted or linked to this site should not be used to diagnose or treat a health problem. Your doctor is the only one who can best assess your health situation and give you a medical advice.)
__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 06:50 PM   #68
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,828
Thanks for that really amazingly clear explanation of what's going on. More than I knew, for sure. I think I'll substitute it for a medical consultation, lol!

Those little buggers (polypeptides) sure are a diverse bunch, at least when you look at the number of antigens that they can cause one to generate:
Wheat IgG, Wheat IgA, Wheat Germ Agglutinin IgG, Wheat Germ Agglutinin IgA, Native + Deamidated Alpha-Gliadin-33-mer IgG, Native + Deamidated Alpha-Gliadin-33-mer IgA, Alpha-Gliadin-17-mer IgG, Alpha-Gliadin-17-mer IgA, Gamma-Gliadin-15-mer IgG, Gamma-Gliadin-15-mer IgA, Omega-Gliadin-17-mer IgG, Omega-Gliadin-17-mer IgA, Glutenin-21-mer IgG, Glutenin-21-mer IgA, Gluteomorphin+Prodynorphin IgG, Gluteomorphin+Prodynorphin IgA, Gliadin-Transglutaminase IgG, Gliadin-Transglutaminase IgA, Transglutaminase-2 IgG, Transglutaminase-2 IgA, Transglutaminase-3 IgG, Transglutaminase-3 IgA, Transglutaminase-6 IgG, Transglutaminase-6 IgA.
__________________
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 09:10 PM   #69
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational View Post
Thanks for that really amazingly clear explanation of what's going on. More than I knew, for sure. I think I'll substitute it for a medical consultation, lol!

Those little buggers (polypeptides) sure are a diverse bunch, at least when you look at the number of antigens that they can cause one to generate:
.
They are the antigens. What is generated in the immune system are the antibodies.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 09:21 PM   #70
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
They are the antigens. What is generated in the immune system are the antibodies.

Ha
Thanks. Biology isn't my strong suit. I'm not even very good at finding a good doctor who understands it.
__________________
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 01:08 PM   #71
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
My interest in this came from my seafood allergy. There are proteins in seafood that break down to peptides that trigger a pretty unpleasant reaction. A few researchers are actually investigating the mechanism in detail, with the hope of identifying the genetic trigger.
__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 02:52 PM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Ally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,189
I never know what to think about these studies since my mom had Alzheimer's and my dad was very clear headed until he died at 94 from cancer. My mom ate much healthier than my dad. My mom was more physically active than my dad. My mom read more, socialized more, and worried less than my dad. My dad ate more red meat, bread and sugar and had diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart issues from time to time, while my mom's only disease was the Azheimer's. No one in her family had it that we know about. I certainly want to avoid Alzheimer's, but whenever I see studies or diets like these, I wonder why it was my mom and not my dad who got it.
__________________
Ally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 05:40 PM   #73
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally View Post
but whenever I see studies or diets like these, I wonder why it was my mom and not my dad who got it.
We're learning a lot more about AD, and especially about the individual genetics that contribute to it. Family history is a very imprecise guide as to the actual genes an individual has onboard, and how they will be expressed over time. But, from what I've read, it seems probable that many people with AD were highly likely to get it from the day they were conceived, and nutrition and other environmental factors may play a fairly small role.

I highly recommend an article on AD in the Mar 2015 eddition of Discover magazine (I think it is still on newstands). It has a lot of easy-to-understand info on the latest very interesting research in understanding how AD develops and promising ways we may be able to treat it. I know we've seen promises before, but I'm optimistic.

About causative factors, from that piece:
Quote:
Alzheimer’s disease can tear through generations of families. In the early-onset form, it claims victims in the prime of their lives, in their 40s and early 50s. It envelops them in a fog of confusion and ultimately erodes relationships and memories. Scientists have spent much of the past three decades hunting down genes linked to this inherited form of the disease. In the past three years, they’ve uncovered more than a dozen of them.
. . .
The newly unmasked genes play a role in three distinctively different bodily functions, including systems that control inflammation and cholesterol and the regulation of how brain cells clean up toxic proteins. These discoveries build upon previous findings about genes linked to Alzheimer’s, such as the APOE-4 gene, which is a powerful marker for late-onset Alzheimer’s disease; about 40 percent of those diagnosed have this DNA variant. In fall 2013, this international consortium identified 11 more genes that increase the risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease, bringing the total number of genes associated with the more common late-onset form of the disease to 21. This expanded collection helps paint a clearer picture of the factors that ratchet up risks. It also offers unprecedented glimpses of the biological pathways that drive the disorder.
Obviously, there's much more in the article, a good read.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 08:33 PM   #74
Recycles dryer sheets
Retire2013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsmeow View Post
A little over a year ago, DH and I did a test to see if we had any gluten sensitivity. I do believe that some people (apart from those with celiac disease) have sensitivity to gluten. And, I could see how people might not just know this.

So, we went gluten free for a month to see what happened. During that month we did not eat gluten at all. For the first 2 weeks I went grain free entirely (DH didn't). After that, I did eat some limited grains that had no gluten (corn tortillas, brown rice). We looked at the gluten-free section in the store and decided that the majority of it was gluten-free junk food. No, I don't need to eat gluten-free cookies.

I don't personally eat a lot of bread. The other day I had a tuna sandwich and that was the first bread I had had in weeks. DH, on the other hand, likes bread and eats it every day. So, we looked at some of the gluten-free breads such as those made with rice flour. We elected not to get that either.

In our case, we found absolutely no difference between how we felt before and how we felt after being without gluten for 30 days. It was an interesting experiment and we both concluded that gluten doesn't happen to bother us.
Thank you for sharing!

Retire 2013
__________________
Formerly known as "Retire 2014" Due to aggressive saving and a lot of luck managed to get out at end of March 2013, hence, the name change :)
Retire2013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 07:16 AM   #75
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Ally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
We're learning a lot more about AD, and especially about the individual genetics that contribute to it. Family history is a very imprecise guide as to the actual genes an individual has onboard, and how they will be expressed over time. But, from what I've read, it seems probable that many people with AD were highly likely to get it from the day they were conceived, and nutrition and other environmental factors may play a fairly small role.

I highly recommend an article on AD in the Mar 2015 eddition of Discover magazine (I think it is still on newstands). It has a lot of easy-to-understand info on the latest very interesting research in understanding how AD develops and promising ways we may be able to treat it. I know we've seen promises before, but I'm optimistic.

About causative factors, from that piece:
Obviously, there's much more in the article, a good read.

Thanks! I am going to look for that article. My mom didn't shown signs of Alzheimer's until she was about 78, and she was diagnosed at 80 and lived to 88. Thankfully, it wasn't the early onset type.



Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
__________________

__________________
Ally is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hard time slowing down Ellwood970 Hi, I am... 22 04-20-2013 06:09 AM
Eliminating debt is my main FIRE goal nun FIRE and Money 179 09-05-2009 09:28 PM
Eliminating Meat, Substituting Fish & Seafood ForeignExchange Health and Early Retirement 56 11-19-2007 09:55 AM
Boomers preventing their own retirement? Billy FIRE and Money 54 09-29-2007 10:53 PM
Housing prices down; Stock Market down; Economy slowing; & the benefits dex FIRE and Money 32 03-16-2007 05:46 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:30 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.