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Old 08-07-2011, 01:22 AM   #41
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So it looks like grandson will now be going into the Navy. He passed all the tests and now is waiting for a phone call for the date to enlist. The Navy offered him some kind of deal where they would send him to school but he's not interested in school. He's sick of school. I'm sick of him and his attitude. He's 25 and is sick of school and hates work. He's just getting started in the workforce (??). Told him to look forward to fifty more years of being fed up with the world.
If anyone wants to chime in here, I'd love to hear what you've got to say;
however, I'm tired of talking about it and won't be posting anymore on this thread. I'll gladly read your posts and thoughts. Thanks for listening.
Gosh, we're all glad that we weren't like that when we were 25 years old.

So Navy will take whoever's not good enough to be a Marine? Oboy, I bet the recruit training instructors are looking forward to this experience.

FIREUp2020 can correct me on the latest practices. But IIRC if he enlists with a "no school" option, then the recruiters will administer an ASVAB and slot him for whatever ratings the Navy is currently critically short of he meets the specs of. He'll get the minimum recruit training and then be sent to sea duty, probably on a big-deck ship like an aircraft carrier or an amphib. He'll be an E-1 or E-2 of a couple hundred young adults in Deck Division, in charge of what we euphemistically call "preservation". Before he qualifies to chip & paint, however, he might spend a month or two on the mess decks as a food-service "helper" to the cooks.

With a 2-4 year enlistment to look forward to more of the same Deck Div (and mess decks) experiences, he'll be motivated to find a rating that interests him. Usually that's accomplished by telling a chief petty officer and then getting to try it for a few weeks-- provided he has the ASVAB scores. If his chain of command is happy with his potential then he can start studying to take the advancement exam and get admitted to that rating. Or he can apply to the training pipeline (there's that "school" thing again) to get the training he qualifies for.

Even if he aspires to be a knuckle-draggin' bosun's mate (the Navy's oldest rating, from the age of sail) then he'll still need to complete an amazing assortment of one-week schools, website training, general-knowledge programs, under-instruction watchstanding, leadership seminars, and other educational experiences. The Navy is all about school.

Or he can grow up consider the recruiter's advice to pursue training in something that interests him-- mechanical, security, computers, electronics, intelligence, aviation, even explosives. Mechanical & electronics training can also lead directly to a nuclear submarine career, and the other fields can lead to submarine duty in a non-nuclear rating. He'll have a 4-8 year enlistment, but he can leave the training pipeline as an E-3 or even an E-4 and spend a lot less time on menial labor.

In general, two years of "nondesignated" Navy service is a huge motivator to get trained and perhaps even get some college classes.

But with that tattoo there may be some programs (instructor, recruiter) that he won't qualify for. I can't say "never", but he'll be at the mercy of the "standards of the month" rules.

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Originally Posted by oldtrig View Post
Sounds like he has an attitude that the Navy will take care right away.
Yeah, sure, like the military really wants that job. Far easier to recruit the ones who really want the advanced training, and a shaky economy offers plenty of opportunity to pick & choose.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:33 AM   #42
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Sounds like he's ready for ER!

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Update:
He's 25 and is sick of school and hates work. .
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:37 AM   #43
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Nords, I said I wouldn't post anymore on this thread but your posting got me to thinking. Of course I can't possibly know him like his mother and father, but I'm starting to pick up a little. When I mentioned that the Navy will take him, I should have gone into more detail. I understand there is some kind of standard test they give to all applicants, kind of like a SAT. He scored 93 on it and I think that's pretty good. The kid is smart, just not smart enough to apply himself. The Navy offered him schooling in nuclear something or other and that is what he turned down. Remember, he's sick of school. Said he wanted to be in the aviation end of the business.

Well, come to find out a little family problem may be the root cause of all this. Our daughter and SIL came over last weekend and informed us that grandson #1's brother (23) is gay. They have known about it since last October as has grandson #!. The brothers had a knock down drag out fight that has put a little riff in that family. I guess grandson #1 kicked #2's butt. SIL had to jump in and stop it as he feared #1's martial arts might come into play. #1 is so pi**ed at his brother being gay that he wants out of the house. Can't stand to be around his gay brother.

I'm thinking about having a talk with grandson #1, try to pick him up a little and talking him into taking the "nuclear thing" offer from the Navy. However, the "nuclear thing" might mean submarines and couldn't blame him for not wanting that.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:18 AM   #44
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"#1 is so pi**ed at his brother being gay that he wants out of the house. Can't stand to be around his gay brother."

Johnnie, this must be hard for you to take, since I'm sure you love all your grandsons equally and don't want one to bully the other one. You must be hurting for your daughter's sake, too. I'm sorry there is strife in your family.

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Old 08-07-2011, 08:18 AM   #45
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He's 25 and is sick of school and hates work. He's just getting started in the workforce (??). Told him to look forward to fifty more years of being fed up with the world.
This describes a cousin of mine. We were very close as kids and spent our summers together. One additional characteristic he had to your description above was "problems with authority".

The short version: he joined the army, spent 10 years or so, and has been driving a truck ever since. He doesn't complain but it is a tough life.

The Armed Forces is not the ideal place to deal with individuals like this, but they are equipped to do so.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #46
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I understand the situation (of his wanting to leave), completely.

For me, the military was my "way out" of a bad family situation. I left the month after I turned 19 and other than a few short visits during my elistment, it was my path to "freedom".

I went in with nothing (literally, with no money, and the only clothes on my back, as a "rainbow" enlistee). I left the military with a wife, a son, and a better future. Yeah, for me, it turned out well...

No regrets...
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:30 AM   #47
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I understand there is some kind of standard test they give to all applicants, kind of like a SAT. He scored 93 on it and I think that's pretty good. The kid is smart, just not smart enough to apply himself. The Navy offered him schooling in nuclear something or other and that is what he turned down. Remember, he's sick of school. Said he wanted to be in the aviation end of the business.
That's the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's frequently administered at high schools in addition to recruiting stations, and it's the preliminary screening tool for choosing ratings (specialties).

Even in the submarine force there's a substantial difference among the ASVAB requirements for a quartermaster navigation electronics tech (or whatever we're calling them now), a torpedoman machinist's mate weapons, a nuclear reactor technician, and a cook culinary specialist. However they all have varying degrees of required schooling/training, and on a submarine he'd be heavily burdened with additional qualification requirements (which require more schooling/training/studying). For example a submariner cook is cross-trained as a first-aid medic, and some have even taken the initiative to pursue EMT training. All submariners are heavily trained on firefighting and damage control. Many of them are even cross-trained on target tracking & analysis to help with intelligence and warfighting.

But lemme make sure I understand this young man's attitude: he doesn't want to have to learn or study, and he doesn't want to work hard, so he'd rather be an aviator? (I can almost hear REWahoo! spewing coffee on his computer monitor.) As much as I'd like to tell this story in the submariner's bars, I'd have to say "Good luck with that". Navy air is not for laziness, and I think even the Air Force requires some minimum level of schooling, training, & studying in its aviation community.

Based on what you've told me of your grandson's stated aptitude for physical exertion, if he's offered the Navy rating of "aviation bosun's mate" or the really cool job of "plane captain" then he should run away fast.

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#1 is so pi**ed at his brother being gay that he wants out of the house. Can't stand to be around his gay brother.
Sibling rivalry? No problem. Martial arts? A plus. Doesn't get along well with the team? We can work on that.

Homophobia? Don't even bother trying to enlist-- the military will successfully implement the end of "don't ask don't tell" but right now the chain of command is very sensitive to any possible backlash. If he tells this story or expresses any anti-gay sentiments then he'd be heading straight for an administrative discharge. Or worse.

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I'm thinking about having a talk with grandson #1, try to pick him up a little and talking him into taking the "nuclear thing" offer from the Navy. However, the "nuclear thing" might mean submarines and couldn't blame him for not wanting that.
The "other nuclear option" is aircraft carriers, which can work out just fine. He can spend an entire career going among any of a dozen of them and, depending on his rating, might even be able to get duty on a different ship like a submarine tender (nuclear maintenance). He still gets sea pay for sea duty. When he's doing nuclear work in his specialty then he gets special duty assignment pay. There are plenty of shore duty options as well, although some of the special programs still screen for body art.

He'd have to volunteer for submarine service, so if he doesn't want it then it won't happen. Submariners do not want non-volunteers, and volunteers who change their minds are quickly persuaded to leave.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:45 AM   #48
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.

But lemme make sure I understand this young man's attitude: he doesn't want to have to learn or study, and he doesn't want to work hard, so he'd rather be an aviator?
.
Sounds like someone who has "grown up" playing way too many video games.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:54 AM   #49
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Nords, is the ASVAB the same test and same scoring system they used 20 years ago? I believe the same test is given to all branches, correct? If so, then I dont believe 93 is all that great of a score is it?. I took the test in 1986 and joined the Army. I scored 125.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:08 AM   #50
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There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
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On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
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Johnnie:

Your grandson stands now in the position to take that tide. If the Navy accepts him, he will be in a position to learn a useful trade. Among other possibilities, the Navy can teach him to be an electronics technician, an electrician, HVAC tech, industrial health safety tech, diesel mechanic, aviation mechanic or power plant operator. People who are rated in these specialized areas tend to advance faster and go further in the Navy. And even if he finds that the Navy itself is not the career for him, the skills he learns there can be immensely valuable once he gets out. But here's the rub -- all of these require further schooling and the desire and ability to work to acquire the necessary qualifications. So, even assuming the Navy takes him, indolence is not rewarded there any more than in the civilian world. If he's planning to sit there like a bump on a log and do nothing but mess cook and chip paint as an E-3 in the Deck Division, I'm not sure it's even worth his time to join.

I'm sure it's quite frustrating for you to watch. I have nephews and a niece in their mid-twenties who seemingly have no ambition and are just drifting through life. If I were their father instead of their uncle, I might be pulling my few remaining hairs out. At this point, I just have to be content to provide a good example. They do not ask for my advice and I don't give it.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:54 AM   #51
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Nords, is the ASVAB the same test and same scoring system they used 20 years ago? I believe the same test is given to all branches, correct? If so, then I dont believe 93 is all that great of a score is it?. I took the test in 1986 and joined the Army. I scored 125.
I don't know how the scoring system has changed over the years, but it's the same acronym for the modern version of the test.

I'm hoping FIREUp2020 will weigh in shortly with her recruiting expertise on the latest changes.
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:09 PM   #52
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He should take the nuke offer. They have it good and can get a sweet job after the Navy if they want. It is a very long school, very detail oriented.

I dealt with the tattoo policy in the Army Guard. It used to be no tattoos showing on neck and past arm cuffs, where long sleeve shirt would be. I think they relaxed the neck ones tho, as those seem to be popular. Same restriction on extremist/hate, etc.

ASVAB scoring changed a while ago, to one score. When I took mine in 85 I got 5 or 6 scores I think.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:03 PM   #53
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We all have different ages we mature. I was definitely a late bloomer. When I was 25 I did not like to work. All I wanted to do was play golf, gamble and drink beer. I did enjoy those days but I knew I could not go on like that forever. When I was 29 my brother was killed in an automobile accident. I was working with him and my Dad in our family business. All of a sudden I had to grow up. I sometimes wonder how I would have turned out if my brother had lived. I looked to him for everything. I did not want to do anything myself, just let my brother figure it out. Well things changed fast after that and I did change. I turned out pretty good. My friends today would be shocked if I told about my past. I think the 25 year old who is planning on going into the Navy will turn out good. It just will take a while. He is probably just a late bloomer like me. Tom
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:39 PM   #54
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We all have different ages we mature. I was definitely a late bloomer. When I was 25 I did not like to work. All I wanted to do was play golf, gamble and drink beer. I did enjoy those days but I knew I could not go on like that forever. When I was 29 my brother was killed in an automobile accident. I was working with him and my Dad in our family business. All of a sudden I had to grow up. I sometimes wonder how I would have turned out if my brother had lived. I looked to him for everything. I did not want to do anything myself, just let my brother figure it out. Well things changed fast after that and I did change. I turned out pretty good. My friends today would be shocked if I told about my past. I think the 25 year old who is planning on going into the Navy will turn out good. It just will take a while. He is probably just a late bloomer like me. Tom
Thank you so much for your post oldtrig. It brought tears to my eyes to think how much that experience must have devastated you. I love both my grandsons, lived next door to them for five years, was in the delivery room when they were born, watched them grow from babies, then watching them move to Okinawa when Marines shipped out "my family". When SIL came back to the states, he got stationed at McDill AFB in Tampa. We moved from Ft. Myers and lived next door to them for eight years. Watched the boys grow up and graduate high school, then go on to junior college. We've always been very family oriented. We've both moved but still live within a couple miles. You can't live that close for all those years and not care about each other. My initial post was titled "Grandson Devastated". I think it should have been titled "Grandpa Devastated". Like you, maybe they will be late bloomers. Thanks again for you kind words.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:11 PM   #55
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We all have different ages we mature. I was definitely a late bloomer. When I was 25 I did not like to work. All I wanted to do was play golf, gamble and drink beer.
Immature? That's what half the members of this board spend their time doing!

Minus the gambling ;-)
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:52 PM   #56
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Johnnie - I think you need to have a talk with grandson 1. it sounds like he could use some advice and a little direction from an old-timer. I still remember getting the talks in the early 70's. I think those talks helped me immensely.
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:25 AM   #57
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!!!think how much that experience must have devastated you!!!
I don't think any one thing has ever devastated as bad as this did. I was in shock for a very long time. One day he was here and then gone. He was my only brother. That was in 1976 but it seems like yesterday. I think about him everyday.
I am 100% sure your grandson will turn out fine. It probably will do no good talking to him at this time. I know it did me no good when I was at that age. As he ages he will change and I think the Navy will help him. Just let him be and when he returns for a visit when on leave I bet you will see a BIG change in him. Good luck to you and him.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:36 PM   #58
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I heard on FB I was summonsed to this thread! (pretty funny to be tracked down for one site on another!)

Current Navy recruiting "temperature":

One big tattoo not visible in uniform that is not inappropriate is waiverable. Multiple tattoos CAN be waived, and the location and tattoo itself are subjective to the Commanding Officer who has the authority to waive these.

ASVAB scores - each military applicant takes the test to enlist. Each branch converts the scores differently. 99 is the "maximum" score the way the Navy converts the raw scores. 93 is an awesome score, and he is eligible (as far as the test) for most jobs. That number is only compliled from the two mathmetic sections and the two "English" sections. Mechanical comprehension, coding speed, science, etc categories are used to match applicants up with available jobs and their aptitude beyond math/verbal aptitude. 35 is the score required to "pass" - Navy recruiters will totally blow you off with a score below a 50 (very few openings for scores below 50) - with the economy the way it is, we can be picky.

Are there any criminal or drug issues? This could also be the reason he is getting the blow off (with his ASVAB score, and going the nuke route, past transgressions are more likely to be approved)

DADT (Don't Ask Don't Tell) is repealed effective 20 September. If he has any problem with "homosexuals", the military is not for him - it will be painful for him, and as Nords mentioned, he will be booted out so fast his head will be spinning if he expresses noticeable backlash against this policy.

25 years old, and the Navy is interested in him joining - he should be greatful, and go through with it - regardless of the job. We no longer stuff square pegs into round holes, and are looking for specific test scores, specific skills, etc. - and sharp high school seniors in particular. The people who decided civlant is not for them, and "oh, I'll just join the military if that does not work out" are NOT the primary target market. Nor are prior service individuals. These folks get to wait in line - for their recruiter to call with a "can you go tomorrow" message. This means we had a last minute hot fill and it will go to the first recruiter that gets one of these (not the HS seniors) people "on deck" to enlist and later ship to boot camp.

Regardless of what route he goes with the Navy, he is in for MORE SCHOOL!! Initial training, specialty school, one and two week schools throughout his time in...encouraged to attend/finish off-duty college...SCHOOL SCHOOL SCHOOL...

Best of luck to him!
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:52 PM   #59
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While you care about grandson #1, please tell #2 that you love and care about him, too, and that you accept him for what he is, even though his brother has issues with acceptance.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:02 PM   #60
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While you care about grandson #1, please tell #2 that you love and care about him, too, and that you accept him for what he is, even though his brother has issues with acceptance.
I talked to grandson #1 last night and asked him about his brother. His initial reaction was one of disgust and that's what triggered the fight. #1 tells me the issue is over and he wants to move on. #2 has been gone all summer working for a company in Chicago installing security systems. He is due home Aug 12. Might be an interesting homecoming. Sure, I will always love grandson #2 but I don't have to agree with his ways or be around him if he's with a "friend".
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