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Old 04-13-2008, 03:09 PM   #21
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I don't have a doctor tested max HR but using several different formulas and sub-max tests I estimate my max rate at ~175-178.
It's more like 220 - age, or 160 in your case. So, 80% is 128. 80 to 85% probably won't feel that strenuous but it's enough for aerobic conditioning and safe if you are conditioned and don't have other medical issues.
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Old 04-13-2008, 03:35 PM   #22
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Sounded like a good wake up call, donheff. Glad you came out ok.

A lot of good info here. I especially agree with the comments about drinking before you get thirsty, and taking electrolytes in the form of sports drinks, and/or salt tablets or the electrolyte capsules (brand names like E-Caps or Endurolytes) that replace other chemicals as well as salt.

The way I read thirst is that it works as a sign if you don't continue exertion, but if you're still running/biking/whatever, you'll fall further behing as you continue on. You need to train yourself to drink early and often, and definitely not just water if you're out there a long time. You can only process so much water at once, so sip often rather than taking a few big drinks. Cramps are a first sign you are losing too much salt, but you may not always get that sign before you get into worse trouble.

Personally I go half-and-half water and gatorade if I'm out for more than 90 minutes, and add e-caps depending on how much longer and how hot it is. I also add honey or Gu for 3 or more hours out there, and solid food at 5 hours or more. That's a rough guide rather than hard and fast numbers.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:04 PM   #23
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I've gotten mild versions of "water intoxication" or hyponatremia while hiking in the desert.
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I worked in a steel foundry one summer during college. I guess the foreman had seen folks drink too much water in the hot foundry because when I went to the him asking to go home because I felt tired and nauseated and spacey he handed me two salt tablets and I was better in no time at all.
i though i remembered a story about florida (where else?) parents who were brought to court because they made their kid drink so much water that the child died. can't find an article about it but i found this:

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Why is too much water dangerous?

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Drinking too much water can eventually cause your brain to swell, stopping it regulating vital functions such as breathing, and causing death. So what happens?

Water enters the body when we drink and is removed primarily in the urine and sweat. The amount of water in the body is regulated to control the levels of certain compounds, such as salt, in the blood.
If you drink too much water, eventually the kidneys will not be able to work fast enough to remove sufficient amounts from the body, so the blood becomes more dilute with low salt concentrations.
water: dangerous stuff. handle with care.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:24 PM   #24
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I have not had water issues in my 40+ years of running. I remember my pericarditis event in 2001 july. Had run 5 or 6 miles that day heat was 95 and humid. Did not drink at all during the run, drank some water in the evening then my situation that sent me to the ER then the ICU for two days. I told the doctor and nurses that I was probably dehydrated when they did lab work.Guess what I was not. In fact I was not really thirsty either. Over the years I have been always aware of water intake not too much not too little all through the day.

crazy though. Heck last thursday drank a 6 oz cup of water before my 17 mile run in 60 degree dry temps. Not a problem. Then again I would not run 17 on a hot and humid day. Gotta know the weather!

Being really trained makes a difference and the degree of speed and distance will dictate fluid intake. too much always is a problem.Having to do a number UNO during a run tells me I have had too much to drink.
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:30 PM   #25
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Personally I go half-and-half water and gatorade if I'm out for more than 90 minutes, and add e-caps depending on how much longer and how hot it is. I also add honey or Gu for 3 or more hours out there, and solid food at 5 hours or more. That's a rough guide rather than hard and fast numbers.
The guy that invented Gatorade died recently. He was the team Doc for the Florida Gators football team and realized the players would drink lots of water but needed to replace electrolytes. He made up a batch of what he thought was needed and gave it to the players to drink - they said it tasted like urine. Proving how dedicated he was to his beliefs he actually drank some of his own urine and decided they were right

His wife then helped him with his recipe to make his new drink more palitable.
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:42 PM   #26
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water: dangerous stuff. handle with care.
Boy, I'd hate to leave that impression. There is a much larger risk from under-hydrating than there is from drinking too much water. In fact, it is nearly impossible to drink so much water that you get hyponatremic (low sodium) which causes brain swelling unless you are in extreme circumstances, but it is really easy to get dangerously dehydrated by drinking too little.

The risk of hyponatremia is greater if you are on diuretics, are involved in prolonged (> 1 hour) strenuous activity with only plain water replacement (hence the electrolyte issue above), or have other health issues. There is also something called psychogenic polydypsia, a psychiatric condition where water drinking excessively becomes an obsession (like many gallons per day).

Drink lots of water.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:34 AM   #27
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Don - glad you're ok. Dehydration is scary because there is rarely any advance notice. But I have developed a weird warning system. I get pain in the joints where my toes connect to my feet when I'm running/biking/hiking/raquetball or whatever without enough water. So now I camel-up before taking on any rigorous activity.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:41 AM   #28
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There's another good point. If you've got something big coming up, hydrate very well the day or two before.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #29
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It's more like 220 - age, or 160 in your case. So, 80% is 128. 80 to 85% probably won't feel that strenuous but it's enough for aerobic conditioning and safe if you are conditioned and don't have other medical issues.
That could be right, or it could be way off.

The 220-36(age)=184 max isn't even close for me. I can sit at 184 and hold a "hard breathing conversation."., I can be there for a few minutes with out to much struggle. 189 is my anaerobic threshold (where I start panting, and can only maintain for 30-60 seconds), I can see 194-198 on my watch fairly often if I'm pushing hard. Once a month or so, I see 200-201 if I'm in good shape and riding/running alot... doubt I could get there right now, just not in good enough shape to push that hard.

If you've taken sub max tests, I'd tend to believe them over the 220-age stuff.

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Old 04-17-2008, 07:13 PM   #30
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It's a well-tested and highly reliable rule of thumb, pretty darn trusty for the vast majority of people, used all over the fitness and medical literature. I have found it quite reliable within a 5 percent. Of course there will always be exceptions.

Even if your max is 200ish versus the predicted 184, it's all of 8% off for you if your numbers are accurate.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:35 PM   #31
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It's a well-tested and highly reliable rule of thumb, pretty darn trusty for the vast majority of people, used all over the fitness and medical literature. I have found it quite reliable within a 5 percent. Of course there will always be exceptions.

Even if your max is 200ish versus the predicted 184, it's all of 8% off for you if your numbers are accurate.
8% doesn't sound like much, but if I did workouts based on 184 instead of my real rate, it would be like taking a walk in the park. I can maintain 80% of 184 as pretty much a warm-up

From my studies of this very question a few years ago, I have come to the conclusion that 220-Age is a myth that seems to be carried on by everybody from doctors to physical trainers. My personal experience and that of many of my friends says it doesn't fit reality. (Hey, maybe I'm not living in the real world)

You may want to do a bit of research on how the 220-age came from:
http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Robergs.doc

has some good details on where that formula came from...

Then check this out for the "layman" discussion.

The Myth Of "Maximum Heart Rate = 220-Age"

References

-Carmichael, Chris, and Jim Rutberg, The Ultimate Ride: Get Fit, Get Fast, and Start Winning With the World's Top Cycling Coach, Grosset & Dunlap, 2003.

-Kolata, G, "Maximum Heart Rate Theory Is Challenged", The New York Times Health Page, April 24, 2001.

-Robergs, R, and Landwehr, R, "The Surprising History Of The 'HRmax= 220-age' Equation', Journal of Exercise Physiology Online, 5(2), 2002.

-Tanaka, H, Monahan, K, Seals, D, "Age-Predicted Maximal Heart Rate Revisited", Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 37(1), 153, 2001.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:12 PM   #32
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Some definite food for thought in this thread. I've been solo cycling for the past three years for exercise. The health benefits have been amazing. As I look forward to retiring (currently 49, will be retired no later than 55), I can envision being able to take longer rides.

My current rides are usually between 14-20 miles at a pace between 13.5-15.5 mph (generally slower in the winter/wind, faster in warmer weather). Since I get out of work most days between 2:30-3:00pm, I can still get in a ride on many winter days, weather permitting.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:35 PM   #33
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8% doesn't sound like much, but if I did workouts based on 184 instead of my real rate, it would be like taking a walk in the park. I can maintain 80% of 184 as pretty much a warm-up

From my studies of this very question a few years ago, I have come to the conclusion that 220-Age is a myth that seems to be carried on by everybody from doctors to physical trainers. My personal experience and that of many of my friends says it doesn't fit reality. (Hey, maybe I'm not living in the real world)

You may want to do a bit of research on how the 220-age came from:
http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Robergs.doc

has some good details on where that formula came from...

Then check this out for the "layman" discussion.

The Myth Of "Maximum Heart Rate = 220-Age"

References

-Carmichael, Chris, and Jim Rutberg, The Ultimate Ride: Get Fit, Get Fast, and Start Winning With the World's Top Cycling Coach, Grosset & Dunlap, 2003.

-Kolata, G, "Maximum Heart Rate Theory Is Challenged", The New York Times Health Page, April 24, 2001.

-Robergs, R, and Landwehr, R, "The Surprising History Of The 'HRmax= 220-age' Equation', Journal of Exercise Physiology Online, 5(2), 2002.

-Tanaka, H, Monahan, K, Seals, D, "Age-Predicted Maximal Heart Rate Revisited", Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 37(1), 153, 2001.
Like all rules of thumb there are exceptions.

So is your name Lance in real life

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Old 04-19-2008, 03:03 PM   #34
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Like all rules of thumb there are exceptions.

So is your name Lance in real life

MB
DW and I are the same age - 53 - so our theoretical max heart rate is 167. However we are so different. She can be at 167 in no time at all and carry on a conversation no problem. I have to really work very hard to get my heart rate up there and by then I certainly have difficulty continuing a conversation. At a recent treadmill stress test my resting heart rate was 49 before we started, and it was 12 minutes into my test when I got up to 167 (by this time I was running). I kept going for for another 3 minutes before we stopped the test - I was knackered

When I exercise myself I just can't get my heart rate up to 80% of max (130) and maintain it there for long periods of time. Probably means I'm not doing enough aerobic
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:17 PM   #35
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My mom had an issue with the BP meds and hyponatremia, too. We were in Moab, and were gonna do an easy drop-off and bike down hill through a desert/arches dirt road, and get picked up at the bottom. She is not in much shape, but we figured she could just walk the bike whenever it went uphill at all, it just might take a while. A couple of hours later, it got up to 100 degrees. We brought and drank plenty of water, but she bonked big time.

The men rode ahead to find someone w/4WD, I tried to carry her bike for her, but she couldn't even walk anymore and there was no shade. It was getting pretty worrisome when the sheriff the guys had flagged down finally pulled up and gave her a ride down. He immediately knew what was wrong, and she felt fine soon after eating something salty.

I guess with high BP you are conditioned to *not* eat salty things, so you are probably already closer to the sodium deficit than an average person.
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Old 04-20-2008, 12:22 PM   #36
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I would think twice before I would get far away from water and shade in the desert. On second thought, I would think twice before I got too far from A/C
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Old 04-20-2008, 02:16 PM   #37
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What does the "maximum" mean (in "maximum heart rate"). Does it mean the maximum rate at which it will pump or the maximum that you should not exceed (as in Red line). Wife says she gets over the max when running hard all the time.
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Old 04-20-2008, 03:55 PM   #38
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What does the "maximum" mean (in "maximum heart rate"). Does it mean the maximum rate at which it will pump or the maximum that you should not exceed (as in Red line). Wife says she gets over the max when running hard all the time.
Maximum heart rate is how fast your heart can go if you went as hard as you can while somebody had a gun to your head until you collapsed. Ie. you shouldn't ever actually hit your maximum unless you have a dr. standing next to you who will attempt to save your life if something goes wrong.

Thats why "sub-max" tests are very useful. They attempt to predict your maximum with out you actually having to go to your maximum. If you want to find what your "Maximum Heart Rate" is without doing a treadmill test (Can be expensive). Do a goggle search for "Sub-Max heart rate tests". There are a number of them you can do. Make sure you are well rested before you perform them.

You will be quite suprised that they will rarely show your max as 220-age, quite often they will be 20 beats above that, or 20 beats below that. If you do a 3-4 different tests over a few weeks, you will get a very good idea of where your max is.

From there, I set my watch which has 3 zones in it, to be 60-70,70-80,80-90. Then I can see where I am at and how long I spend in each zone. Different types of workouts will drive your heart differently. Riding a bike is very different than running, which is different than swimming, which is different than rowing...

If you and a friend do the submax tests, and you are both in fairly identical shape. You should find that typically when you are both doing the same amount of output, you should be both near the same percentile of heart rate. You will not see the same actually heart rate, but the same percent of max. I use to do alot of riding with a friend and we were fairly competitive. We could pretty easily see which one of us was feeling better, currently in better shape, slept more, wasn't sick... and so on based on where each of us was as we rode. I quit riding near as much over the last few years, and now when we go out riding, he will be sitting at 75%, and I will be at 80-85% rate. It becomes very obvious that I am way out of shape compared to him.

Laters,
-d.
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