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Old 02-10-2008, 07:14 AM   #21
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There is a big UNDERREPORTING of muscle pains with the taking of statins and that memory fog. Everyone of my contemporaries who have been on statins complain of aches when walking, jogging if they jog pain in their upper arms when playing golf etc. All in their late 40s and early 50s and have been on the statins for years. All still carry a belly and all have had cardiac issues even since the start of the statin. Addition of stents.

So I will keep watching the food that goes into my mouth and keep running.
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:35 AM   #22
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BTW, I still havent seen any studies that show conclusively that high triglycerides coupled with agreeable LDL and HDL is a problem. Anyone have one? It seems medically logical that "all this fat circulating through your system is bad for you"...but I still havent seen a solid study that says it is. I'm not trying to be obstructional, if there is a study, I'd really like to read it.
I tried my favorite search engine and the first thing that came up was

CNN.com - Study: Heart risks rise with high triglycerides even if cholesterol normal - June 20, 2000

which cites a study by M.A. Austin, et al., in Circulation: The Journal of the American Heart Association, 2000. I presume you've read that one.

The news blurb about it says:
Quote:
Independent of cholesterol levels, a pattern of elevated blood fats called triglycerides in families can predict the risk of heart-attack deaths years in advance, a medical study has shown.

While many people realize that high cholesterol increases the risk of heart attack and stroke, the new study is the first to provide evidence that even when cholesterol is normal, increased triglycerides can predict a two- to three-fold increase of deaths by cardiovascular disease.
I don't know what the article says, or if it even applies to your case. Just providing the link, in the interests of promoting nice, long lives for cute fuzzy bunnies everywhere.
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:43 AM   #23
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There also is a study that talks about the ratio of HDL to Triglycerides. So a hdl of 60 and a triglyceride of 60 would be a ratio of 1 and the ldl particles are fluffy and do not stick to the artery walls. Statins do nothing about triglycerides.
Must keep those Fats way down!! Processed white breads and cookies and fast food really inflate triglyceride levels.

Oh if I was not on CFBs ignore list he would have seen my post about ratios and such. Come on bunnie I have changed my evil political ways.
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:10 AM   #24
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Nothing wrong with niacin though the incidence of flushing is intolerably high in the doses required by many. If you tolerate it, it is fine. Also raises uric acid, potentially causing gout.
Rich, they have "non-flush" niacin now...........
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:25 AM   #25
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Rich, they have "non-flush" niacin now...........
No, they don't. It's more like "less flushing than regular niacin" nicacin.

They have slow release niacin (e.g. niaspan) which has a lower incidence of flushing, though it is around $150 per month. It still causes flushing in quite a few who take it. For many of those an aspirin taken an hour before (if you take aspirin anyhow) can prevent flushing.

No perfect solution.
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:19 PM   #26
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I don't know what the article says, or if it even applies to your case. Just providing the link, in the interests of promoting nice, long lives for cute fuzzy bunnies everywhere.
I think I read that one, but i'll have to re-read it. IIRC my issue with that one was they pulled up historic data for people with heart trouble, and found the ones with high triglycerides and low cholesterol still had heart trouble. What they didnt do was go find if people with the same conditions ever lived fine without heart trouble.

Sort of like pulling up a list of auto accidents and finding out that in half of them people were talking on the phone and therefore concluding that the phone caused half of all accidents.

A cause and effect problem, a causation/correlation problem, plus a problem with specific sampling.

My skeptic alarm also notes that the study was launched not too long after Tricor and its siblings were FDA approved.
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Old 02-10-2008, 02:13 PM   #27
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A cause and effect problem, a causation/correlation problem, plus a problem with specific sampling.
Don't put too much faith in science. At least not yet. Scientists aren't allowed to make arbitrary experiments on humans. And humans live for a long time. So, science is at a huge disadvantage in figuring this stuff out. Correlation is the best you're going to get for a while.

Have you tried a low-carb diet? It works to lower TG, and the mechanism of action is pretty clear. Also, if your serum TG is too high, that seems to be a pretty clear signal that you're simply eating too much, BaconBoy.

It's interesting to think in terms of mechanisms of actions when discussing CHD too.

My understanding is that the primary worry is plaque formation. The secondary worry is that plaques will break off. And a tertiary worry is systemic inflamation.

Serum cholesterol and TG aren't great biomarkers for any of these conditions. They may come up with better tests that more directly test for inflamation. And I think they can do ultrasound tests that can help find high levels of plaque formation.

The risk of plaques breaking off is the interesting one. One of the theories about the benefits of eating fish fat is they think the fat helps stablize the plaques.

In any case, my general impression is that docs have no clue about any of this stuff, so avoid going to the doctor until they figure it all out.
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Old 02-10-2008, 05:01 PM   #28
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In any case, my general impression is that docs have no clue about any of this stuff, so avoid going to the doctor until they figure it all out.
Probably explains why some with good genes and bad habits live to 105!

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Old 02-10-2008, 05:22 PM   #29
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My mom is on the maximum dose of Lipitor (IIRC), 4x the "normal" dose she says, with zero effect over a number of years. She's at 250+ total cholesterol and has been there for at least 15 years. She says her doc will discontinue the drugs soon. So they may have no effect for some!

On the other hand, again IIRC from the conversation yesterday, my uncle's also going off the drugs. But that's because his cholesterol is now at 90 and he's on the normal 1x dose. So they may have a giant effect as well.

I already do most of the good things to lower my cholesterol, but my reading just jumped to 204 from 186 last year. Jeez... I'm just hoping it was a bad day.


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Old 02-10-2008, 07:06 PM   #30
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BTW, I still havent seen any studies that show conclusively that high triglycerides coupled with agreeable LDL and HDL is a problem. Anyone have one?

High Blood Triglycerides Linked to Stroke Risk - Cholesterol Information Produced by Doctors For Patients Experiencing High Cholesterol Levels

Article on triglyc and strokes. Unfortunately, I couldn't find link in it to the actual study.
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Old 02-10-2008, 09:29 PM   #31
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Statin Therapy

discusses a Lancet reported study -- British medical journal -- wherein 20,000 people followed. Concluded statins had significant effect on lowering death rates.
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Watch out for Niacin
Old 02-11-2008, 07:56 AM   #32
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Watch out for Niacin

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Niacin. Good. Cheap. Effective.

But it might make you glow in the dark. (BTW, shouldn't you be asking your doc?)
I took Niacin for a month and saw not difference in my HDL. But boy did the side effects make a difference. I had hot flashes like crazy from that stuff. I would take it an hour before bed and wake up with my skin on fire. I was as red as a berry.

I told my wife that when she goes through the change, she will have my complete respect and attention. Those hot flashes were out of control..
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:29 AM   #33
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No, they don't. It's more like "less flushing than regular niacin" nicacin.

They have slow release niacin (e.g. niaspan) which has a lower incidence of flushing, though it is around $150 per month. It still causes flushing in quite a few who take it. For many of those an aspirin taken an hour before (if you take aspirin anyhow) can prevent flushing.

No perfect solution.

Well, according to the supplement folks:

1)Fish oil
2)Red Yeast Extract
3)CO-Q10
4)Folic acid
5)B complex vitamin

EVERY DAY!!!
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:11 AM   #34
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...In short, what kinds of experiences have folks had with the various cholestrol meds?
Hereís part of what Iíve learned:

Some "minor side effects" can be deal breakers: my system could not tolerate Lovastatin and brand x, Zocor was ineffective but the 4th one, Lipitor, works fine. Iíve been fully compliant on Lipitor for about two years starting when I blew out my knees and didnít get as much exercise. The knees are back and I take great joy in jaywalking again. I take Co-Q-10.

To conflate seven years of discussions about chest pain: my doc. repeatedly telling me he can not refer me to cardiology; a substitute doc. looking me straight in the face to emphasize, "people like you donít have heart disease;" a group of cardiologists one by one taking notes on my story and congratulating me on avoiding a major heart attack; and back to my original doc., "I hate to be right."


When taking life-time medications or recovering from a cardio event, donít expect a little help (or moral support) from your friends. (See other posts on this and other statin threads.)

If I had it to do over again: pre-cardio event, I would have taken docís hints to take a statin and more importantly I would ave stayed on and increased the dosage of a beta blocker. With doc.ís knowledge, I went off of the beta blocker because of fatigue. Now I believe that the fatigue may have been a symptom of the underlying cardio vascular problem.
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:39 PM   #35
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There is a big UNDERREPORTING of muscle pains with the taking of statins and that memory fog. Everyone of my contemporaries who have been on statins complain of aches when walking, jogging if they jog pain in their upper arms when playing golf etc. All in their late 40s and early 50s and have been on the statins for years. All still carry a belly and all have had cardiac issues even since the start of the statin. Addition of stents.

So I will keep watching the food that goes into my mouth and keep running.
How do we know that their pain isn't from their body lugging around 40-50 extra pounds or more, or that the pain is from a old rotator cuff injury, etc?

Bottom line, we just don't know........
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:31 PM   #36
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No one has mentioned flax seed oil. It's nasty tasting but they have in it a gel pill form now that's easier to take than the liquid. My cholesterol dropped from 220 to 180 some time ago. I stopped taking it and my cholesterol went back to 223 again with Kaiser sending a prescription in the mail for Mevacor. Instead I started back on the flax seed oil, dropped pretty much all baked goods, dairy (already a vegetarian), added more fish to my diet which (I started eating two years ago). Haven't gone back yet for another check. Hoping the flax seed oil will do it again.

I've been exercising for years but since I retired I've stepped it up a notch. High cholesterol runs in my family also (maternal side).
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Old 02-11-2008, 06:01 PM   #37
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No one has mentioned flax seed oil. It's nasty tasting but they have in it a gel pill form now that's easier to take than the liquid. My cholesterol dropped from 220 to 180 some time ago. I stopped taking it and my cholesterol went back to 223 again with Kaiser sending a prescription in the mail for Mevacor. Instead I started back on the flax seed oil, dropped pretty much all baked goods, dairy (already a vegetarian), added more fish to my diet which (I started eating two years ago). Haven't gone back yet for another check. Hoping the flax seed oil will do it again.

I've been exercising for years but since I retired I've stepped it up a notch. High cholesterol runs in my family also (maternal side).
Your lifestyle is an inspiration. I'd forgotten why I always grind a lot of flax seeds into the flour--brain fog?
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:50 PM   #38
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Your lifestyle is an inspiration. I'd forgotten why I always grind a lot of flax seeds into the flour--brain fog?
Thanks! I just hope it works. I'm thinking about waiting until April to check my levels, same time as last year.
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:21 AM   #39
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The University of Wisconsin-Madison (my alma mater) has some information about lowering cholesterol. They have a podcast available that advocates lowering cholesterol without drugs.

"Niacin (Nicotinic Acid) is the only treatment that reduces LDL, TG while raising HDL. For techniques to reduce flushing, see handout below."
Lowering Cholesterol - Podcasts & Handouts for Patients & Clinicians | Department of Family Medicine
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:25 PM   #40
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Anybody tried arctic krill instead of fish oil?
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