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Old 04-27-2012, 04:15 PM   #21
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I plan to continue with both as well. For whatever reason, I've had better weight loss results with resistance training than from cardio, comparing 45 minutes of each. If you're lifting for weight loss, lower resistance and (much) higher sets/reps is best. If you're lifting for strength, higher resistance and fewer sets/reps is best, last rep should be lift to failure (just can't do the last rep on each set). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I've also always read that while you can target specific muscles/parts of the body for building muscle mass, you can't really target a part of the body for general fat loss, like abs for example. You can do hundreds of situps, but your body is going to burn excess fat stores from wherever it wants to, not necessarily from abs no?

Not to discount the OP link at all, they're talking about "Belly or abdominal fat – known in scientific communities as visceral fat and liver fat -- is located deep within the abdominal cavity and fills the spaces between internal organs. It's been associated with increased risk for heart disease, diabetes, and certain kinds of cancer." They are not talking about "the fat that lies just under your skin and causes the dreaded muffin top."
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #22
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I think it is fairly well established that for optimal health, one must do aerobic work, strength training, and some some sort of daily activity (walking, easy biking, gardening, etc). The key for me is to keep things short to keep enthusiasm up and excuses for skipping workouts to a minimum. I hit the weights 2x a week for 30 minutes, and run 3x a week for 15 minutes. Maybe not enough for an olympic athlete but I feel pretty good at 53. Now if I could just lose 20 pounds!

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Old 04-28-2012, 12:23 AM   #23
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I think it is fairly well established that for optimal health, one must do aerobic work, strength training, and some some sort of daily activity (walking, easy biking, gardening, etc). The key for me is to keep things short to keep enthusiasm up and excuses for skipping workouts to a minimum. I hit the weights 2x a week for 30 minutes, and run 3x a week for 15 minutes. Maybe not enough for an olympic athlete but I feel pretty good at 53. Now if I could just lose 20 pounds!

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I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fairly well established". We have many anecdotes, and much gurology, (mostly if not entirely by people who make at least some of their income from their guru status), but very few studies. One study I posted an article about drew no comments, but as far as I know it is the sole large, prospective, long lasting longitudinal observational study to address exercise and longevity.

I am glad you feel good at 53, but it is not exactly evidence of anything much.
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Old 04-28-2012, 03:05 AM   #24
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I am glad you feel good at 53, but it is not exactly evidence of anything much.
53......ah, the fresh bloom of youth.....I remember it well.
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:45 AM   #25
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Well, the web site I linked to does indicate that short bouts of exercise are effective ways to reduce heart disease, improve blood pressure, and maintain or improve muscle tone. Just suggesting a solution for those of us that prefer not to live in the gym or on the track.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:05 AM   #26
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And I thought WOW, she is hot.

I try to do both in a 3 to 1 ratio. I run/jog 3 days and weight training one day and keep repeating the cycle. Skip a day about once a week. My running/jogging I do on trails as much as possible. I live about two miles from the Manassas battlefield park that has over 100 miles of trails. So running is done on grass, wood chips, dirt trails that SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the impact on the joints. I try, operative word is try, to maintain about 15 to 20 miles a week and 2 hours of weights a week. Time is the enemy of this routine.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:42 PM   #27
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Anjelica Huston is looking more and more like Mickey Rourke.
...who is looking less and less like Mickey Rourke.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:45 PM   #28
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53......ah, the fresh bloom of youth.....I remember it well.
Heh, heh, I've already forgotten!
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:50 AM   #29
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I did both aerobic and weights through the winter, but now I'm busier with yard work, etc so I've suspended the weight workouts for awhile. Aerobic is generally 5 days of running 4 miles, and 2 treadmill or biking days a week. But I've also slacked off the treadmill/biking through April. I need to increase biking/decrease running to minimize joint problems. It's hard for me to assess my inner fat, but the increased running/biking/hiking I started a year ago seems to have contributed more to my 30 pound weight loss than the weight training has. But then again, I spend about 3 times as much time doing aerobic than weights
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:51 AM   #30
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I did both aerobic and weights through the winter, but now I'm busier with yard work, etc so I've suspended the weight workouts for awhile. Aerobic is generally 5 days of running 4 miles, and 2 treadmill or biking days a week. But I've also slacked off the treadmill/biking through April. I need to increase biking/decrease running to minimize joint problems. It's hard for me to assess my inner fat, but the increased running/biking/hiking I started a year ago seems to have contributed more to my 30 pound weight loss than the weight training has. But then again, I spend about 3 times as much time doing aerobic than weights
So, I understand that you either go runing outside or do treadmill or bike, 6 days/week? And running 4 miles takes on average 40-48 minutes, with warm down?

I can understand your weight loss, this is very regular with good intensity and duration.

Your intensity is what the Duke Researchers call "vigorous", and within the range that Paffenbarger called moderately vigorous, his highest category.

It is really not completely clear from the research, but for certain metabolic goals like insulin resistance, you may increase your results by adding onto your runs enough time to spin it out to 60' each time. It can be only vigorous walking to pad out the time, no need to run the whole time if you don't feel like it. They did find results that suggested that in addition to frequency, duration of the individual aerobic workouts might best last at least 1 hour. Paffenbarger did not investigate duration of individual workouts. THE studies were very different designs.

My aerobics have rested mostly on C2, and outdoor walking in a hilly city. Yesterday for C2 I substituted rumba-like dancing, (actually I used a playlist of classic reggae) with 3 or 4# hand weights, interspersed with kettlebell hip thrusts done with a light bell. I sweat like a pig during this, but I think it was partly due to a humid day, because my terminal HR was not as high as with rowing or fast walking up hills. But interestingly, my hamstrings, calves and buttocks feel pretty heavily used this morning! I used to do this alternate workout sometimes in my garage and driveway at my old apartment, and I think I may start doing it again, maybe 2x/wk.

To help me carry out my plan, I need some interest, and a refusal to miss a day unless I am truly out sick. When I was younger I would get up and think-"I feel like a run today", or "I feel like a"pancake breakfast today". The run did not always win out. But now I get up and say, this is just another day that I need to shore up my defenses against old age ugliness and decrepitude. I don't want to be so ugly that my girlfriend turns out the lights at party time.

So clouds won't shut me down, I no longer have to be inspired.


Ha
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:25 AM   #31
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But now I get up and say, this is just another day that I need to shore up my defenses against old age ugliness and decrepitude. I don't want to be so ugly that my girlfriend turns out the lights at party time.


Ha
So maybe the new routine to combat ugly aging should be cardio + resistance training + flexibility exercises + plastic surgery
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:33 AM   #32
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So maybe the new routine to combat ugly aging should be cardio + resistance training + flexibility exercises + plastic surgery
Quite possibly, but I have my limits. THE C2 actually keeps muscles looking pretty good. But as best I can tell, there is no cure for fading elastin in the skin. My hope is just that nice muscles will make her look past what they are covered by. And I am too scared of Docs to get surgery just to look better. An extra drink for the honey should suffice if needed. And there are always night goggles for me if she should require lights out in spite of my efforts.

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:23 PM   #33
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OK, y'all have shamed convinced me. On the off chance that party time rolls around again (I'm married) I want to minimize the damage too. I've cleared the boxes and dog bed off the treadmill, cleared enough room around the Bowflex for the rods to bend into and for the seat to fold down, and found another place to hang my jacket and hats. I'm planning to start walking outside or on the treadmill for an hour at a time based on the article and Ha's other factoids. I've always been a hiker/walker, so an hour shouldn't be overdoing it, starting slow and building up speed over time. I've also noticed while I've been doing my yardwork/gardening this spring that I'm weaker than I remember, so I'm also going to start some resistance work a few days a week. I've got a lot of health reasons to do this, and only my laziness (one of the more powerful forces in the universe) stopping me. We'll see how it goes.
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #34
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OK, y'all have shamed convinced me. On the off chance that party time rolls around again (I'm married) I want to minimize the damage too. I've cleared the boxes and dog bed off the treadmill, cleared enough room around the Bowflex for the rods to bend into and for the seat to fold down, and found another place to hang my jacket and hats. I'm planning to start walking outside or on the treadmill for an hour at a time based on the article and Ha's other factoids. I've always been a hiker/walker, so an hour shouldn't be overdoing it, starting slow and building up speed over time. I've also noticed while I've been doing my yardwork/gardening this spring that I'm weaker than I remember, so I'm also going to start some resistance work a few days a week. I've got a lot of health reasons to do this, and only my laziness (one of the more powerful forces in the universe) stopping me. We'll see how it goes.
Hey, congratulations! Some is way better than none, and more is usually better than some, over time and within one's limits.

Something I haven't posted about because I didn't think it would apply to most of us obsessives, is that in every study done by the Kraus-Duke team (STRRIDE studies) the control group, who were instructed to continue their accustomed sedentary life, all got worse, on every metabolic measurement taken, even in the fairly short 6-8 months of the study. Same with Paffenbarger's work, the death rate rapidly goes down with some regular aerobic activity, and continues down at a decreasing rate at least until 3500 kc/wk, then seems to level out.

Another factoid from the STRIDE studies: the subjects, middle-aged men and women who were all either obese or overweight at the beginning of the study, were instructed to eat enough to avoid losing weight. That was to demonstrate the effects of pure exercise, separated from weight loss. One would of course not want to prevent weight loss in a non-experimental setting.

And lastly, intensity of effort seemed of very minor importance and for some outcomes possibly even negative. Their comment was, "walking is a good exercise for these outcomes studied".

Ha
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:59 PM   #35
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So, I understand that you either go runing outside or do treadmill or bike, 6 days/week? And running 4 miles takes on average 40-48 minutes, with warm down?

I can understand your weight loss, this is very regular with good intensity and duration.

Your intensity is what the Duke Researchers call "vigorous", and within the range that Paffenbarger called moderately vigorous, his highest category.

It is really not completely clear from the research, but for certain metabolic goals like insulin resistance, you may increase your results by adding onto your runs enough time to spin it out to 60' each time. It can be only vigorous walking to pad out the time, no need to run the whole time if you don't feel like it. They did find results that suggested that in addition to frequency, duration of the individual aerobic workouts might best last at least 1 hour. Paffenbarger did not investigate duration of individual workouts. THE studies were very different designs.

My aerobics have rested mostly on C2, and outdoor walking in a hilly city. Yesterday for C2 I substituted rumba-like dancing, (actually I used a playlist of classic reggae) with 3 or 4# hand weights, interspersed with kettlebell hip thrusts done with a light bell. I sweat like a pig during this, but I think it was partly due to a humid day, because my terminal HR was not as high as with rowing or fast walking up hills. But interestingly, my hamstrings, calves and buttocks feel pretty heavily used this morning! I used to do this alternate workout sometimes in my garage and driveway at my old apartment, and I think I may start doing it again, maybe 2x/wk.

To help me carry out my plan, I need some interest, and a refusal to miss a day unless I am truly out sick. When I was younger I would get up and think-"I feel like a run today", or "I feel like a"pancake breakfast today". The run did not always win out. But now I get up and say, this is just another day that I need to shore up my defenses against old age ugliness and decrepitude. I don't want to be so ugly that my girlfriend turns out the lights at party time.

So clouds won't shut me down, I no longer have to be inspired.


Ha
yes - I run 5 times a week - all outside unless weather is bad - then I run on treadmill. Outside is 33 minutes plus half mile walk cool down totaling 43 minutes. Treadmill runs are 45 minutes with 5 minute cool down. The 2 off days I walk on treadmill incline for 45 minutes or 45 minutes outdoor. I like your idea of increasing to 60 minutes since it seems like I've plateaued. My best weight loss last year was when I was dog-sitting - running followed by a 30 minute dog walk in the morning, another dog walk in the afternoon.

I like your workouts for their variety and that you're hitting all muscle groups. I need to get back to that with my bowflex, etc - I'd like a C2, but I have run out of room. I know what you mean by the "just another day" mentality. Exercise has become just a part of the day like eating, etc.

We can shore up most of defenses through exercise - but DW told me last week that I need to color my hair and think about botox or whatever for wrinkles.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:39 PM   #36
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starting slow
"Start slow...and taper off".....the philosophy of the late great Walt Stack
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:25 AM   #37
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"Start slow...and taper off".....the philosophy of the late great Walt Stack
I am dyslexic, I thought that read Walt Slack.

I for one have never underestimated the power of walking. When I started my exercise program several years ago, I lost 35 lbs from walking alone, and then after adding in resistance training put back about 30 lbs. If it was possible to retain the muscle and get back to 175 lbs, I'd be a happy man.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:47 AM   #38
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For me, life is better with four exercise days per week rather than six. To put in exercise every day was a chore, and you get more tired of doing it. the worst were the days when dinner was approaching, and I was relaxing, and then I'd realize that I hadn't exercised that day...

I also always wonder about the recovery issue. I'd usually alternate exercise routines to avoid hitting the same muscles two days in a row, but still wondered whether I was letting my body recover.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:07 PM   #39
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That happened to me with heavy weight lifting, or pedal to the metal aerobics. But if what I am doing burns no more than 8-10 kc/minute, I am ok for daily. I can do shorter mini-sessions of much greater intensity, then row very easily for the rest of my mileage. Same with interleaving intense kettlebell swings with rel light heavyhands.

I want to get in 3000-4000 kc/week. I keep a 7 day moving sum to keep me tuned in. Sometimes I miss, sometimes I go over. Overall, I am runing a bit below goal, but this is a step-up from before and I am taking my time getting it grooved. A very long Sunday hike would allow this without daily work, but my arthritic hip would be killing me by the end, and I want to preserve that hip as best I can. I never feel it at all on the rower. So a daily combination anchored by C2 seems best for me. I will add a lifting session 1x/wk when do deadlifts, rows, and mil presses, when I get to 1000km on my C2, I think I can shoehorn what I need for this into my apt. Or keep it in my storage locker and do it down there.

I don't beleive any of this is harmfuil or unsustainable. My mother's father and mother ran an old fashioned subsistance farm on a quarter section, long before social security. They got whatever cash they need from tobacco. No electricty, no tractor or truck, a couple of plow horses, a well with a throw down bucket and a cistern with a hand pump in the kitchen no less, a wood lot and cooking and heating with wood-those were their modern conveniences. I doubt my grandfather lived a day that he didn't spend 4000 kc working. He was 5'10" and weighed maybe 145. He lived to 84, saw a doc only once when he got kicked while shoeing a horse, and worked the morning of the day he died. In other words, his final illness lasted only 45 seconds. I laugh at gurus wno warn against "chronic cardio". Before modcons, life was chronic cardio. And any man who has ever hunted without horses or winches and roads every ten feet, knows that hunting is intense, chronic cardio. So much for the fantasies about pleistocene men hanging around the camp sharpening spears then runing really really fast for 5 minutes to get their game. Don't think so amigos.

And to pull in the sittinng thread- they had a parlor, where they might sight for 2 hours on a Sunday if the preacher came calling, The rest of their sitting was done by Grandma at her sewing machine, or maybe snapping beans or shelling peas in the kitchen. Grandpa sat to eat his meals, otherwise he was up working or sleeping.

Only thing keeping me from much more work is too much laziness.

I imagine I could walk half a day without pain on a quality incline capable treadmill, since they are so much softer than concrete, but I really have no space for a good one, and they cost a lot too.

Ha
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:02 PM   #40
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I laugh at gurus wno warn against "chronic cardio". Before modcons, life was chronic cardio.
I've wondered about that. I'd think most farm work is quite different from running 8 miles (or rowing). Some, yes. Walking with a plow behind a horse, yes. Clearing brush, probably not. Mucking out a stall, no.

There is baloney in some of the paleo talk. For example, I've heard "A cave man didn't strap on a heart rate monitor and run for an hour." No, duh, but he might have run 8 miles to the neighboring village with some important news. OTOH, he probably didn't do that every day. Also, I'd guess that wrestling with saber-toothed tigers was pretty rare. Wrestling with opponents, yes.

In general, I think the idea of reproducing the kind of environment in which man evolved has merit.
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