Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-05-2013, 11:14 AM   #21
Recycles dryer sheets
bamsphd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Why are people considering silver plans (as opposed to Bronze). Just wondering.
Cost sharing requires Silver, so if you can get below $250% of poverty you will probably pick Silver. That won't apply to our household. I'm debating between a Silver HSA policy and a Gold standard policy.

My spread sheet has been based on self + spouse coverage, assuming no subsidy for non-HSA plans, and a subsidy equal to 15% of the $6550 family contribution for HSA eligible plans.

Assuming we never use any medical services (fat chance):
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $6,182
cheapest Silver: HSA costs $7,720
cheapest Gold: non-HSA costs $10,331

Instead assume we repeat our past year's spending:
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $13,182
cheapest Silver: non-HSA costs $12,531 (HSA version costs $12,720)
cheapest Gold: non-HSA costs $12,831

What if one of us hits the Medical Individual deductible with no other expenses:
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $18,882
cheapest Silver: non-HSA costs $13,781 (HSA version costs $15,720)
cheapest Gold: non-HSA costs $13,831

Assume we both have bad years and hit the family medical OOP max
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $18,882
cheapest Silver: HSA costs $15,720 (non-HSA version costs $18,781)
cheapest Gold: non-HSA costs $17,331

I'm pretty confident none of the above scenarios will actually match our spending. However, I think they make it clear that Bronze does NOT equal cheapest over all cost if you will voluntarily visit a medical professional. In truth, the new federal rules keep all the plans much closer than I would have predicted.
__________________

__________________
bamsphd is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-05-2013, 11:39 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
So you spent $11,000 last year on medical expenses?

I can see how someone with high medical expenses might do better with a more expensive plan, but when I did some of the initial calcs I wasn't seeing the benefit for my personal case.
__________________

__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 12:15 PM   #23
Recycles dryer sheets
bamsphd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
So you spent $11,000 last year on medical expenses? .
Oops, thanks I had a typo (now fixed). That line should read:
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $13,182

Actually our spend numbers assume one of us spends $5,000 and the other spends $2,000. Which is what our current insurance company paid out rounded to then nearest $1,000.
__________________
bamsphd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 01:40 PM   #24
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 35
The out-of-pocket max can, just like the deductible, be substantially lower in a Silver plan, if MAGI is below 250% of FPL. And, if you can get it down to 150% of FPL, the cost-savings are incredible:

In Kansas City, MO, a MAGI of $16000 will get you a plan with BCBS with a deductible of $250.00 and an out-of-pocket max of $500.00 (male, non-smoker, age 58.) The premium after subsidy is $160/mo. There are cheaper plans, but they have restricted networks. The above plan is Preferred Care Blue, a truly premier PPO.

Now, obviously, getting your MAGI that low won't be possible if you have too much fixed taxable income like a pension. But, if you're "lucky" and only have IRAs and Roths, it's easy. If you realized last year that 2012 1040's would be the "benchmark" and set your MAGI accordingly then, it appears that you're good to go.
__________________
Rpharmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 03:38 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsphd View Post
Oops, thanks I had a typo (now fixed). That line should read:
cheapest Bronze: HSA costs $13,182

Actually our spend numbers assume one of us spends $5,000 and the other spends $2,000. Which is what our current insurance company paid out rounded to then nearest $1,000.
Looks like in the third example you are having both of you hit the deductible for the bronze case instead of just one of you.
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 03:27 PM   #26
Recycles dryer sheets
bamsphd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Looks like in the third example you are having both of you hit the deductible for the bronze case instead of just one of you.
That bronze plan has a "family medical deductible" of $11,000 but not a separate lower "individual medical deductible." So in essence, yes, we both hit the deductible in that case. The Silver HSA plan has a "family medical deductible" of only $5000.

Even more importantly they also tweak the OOP max which is $12,700 for all the family bronze plans, but $8,000 for the family Silver HSA plan, and $7,000 for the family Gold non-HSA plan. So if hitting the OOP max is a concern one would want to pay an extra $1,538 in premiums for the Silver HSA plan to drop the OOP max by $4,700.

As far as I can tell for us as a couple in my state, the pessimist's clear choice family plan is the Silver HSA plan with an $8,000 OOP max, plus $8,702 in unsubsidized premiums, minus whatever tax/subsidy advantage the HSA provides.

Based on reading on the ER forum, I've decided I also need to further explore getting two individual policies instead. My initial pass eliminated them because the unsubsidized premiums would be more than a thousand dollars greater than a family plan. However, I don't think I adequately allowed for the lower individual deductibles and OOP max values. The biggest other downside of individual plans is that then we would definitely need two separate HSA accounts which would be a bit of a hassle.
__________________
bamsphd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #27
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpharmer View Post
The out-of-pocket max can, just like the deductible, be substantially lower in a Silver plan, if MAGI is below 250% of FPL. And, if you can get it down to 150% of FPL, the cost-savings are incredible:
Yes, but if you are a little too aggressive and slip below 133%, then you lose that cost-sharing benefit, AND the Exchange subsidies, AND if your state didn't expand Medicaid you could be royally screwed. What you say works but it's playing with fire because of how close you are getting to 133%.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 06:33 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsphd View Post
That bronze plan has a "family medical deductible" of $11,000 but not a separate lower "individual medical deductible." So in essence, yes, we both hit the deductible in that case. The Silver HSA plan has a "family medical deductible" of only $5000.

Even more importantly they also tweak the OOP max which is $12,700 for all the family bronze plans, but $8,000 for the family Silver HSA plan, and $7,000 for the family Gold non-HSA plan. So if hitting the OOP max is a concern one would want to pay an extra $1,538 in premiums for the Silver HSA plan to drop the OOP max by $4,700.

As far as I can tell for us as a couple in my state, the pessimist's clear choice family plan is the Silver HSA plan with an $8,000 OOP max, plus $8,702 in unsubsidized premiums, minus whatever tax/subsidy advantage the HSA provides.

Based on reading on the ER forum, I've decided I also need to further explore getting two individual policies instead. My initial pass eliminated them because the unsubsidized premiums would be more than a thousand dollars greater than a family plan. However, I don't think I adequately allowed for the lower individual deductibles and OOP max values. The biggest other downside of individual plans is that then we would definitely need two separate HSA accounts which would be a bit of a hassle.
I think you may have to have two separate HSA accounts anyway. Am I wrong about that?
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 07:00 PM   #29
Recycles dryer sheets
bamsphd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I think you may have to have two separate HSA accounts anyway. Am I wrong about that?
I think the answer is sometimes. See my full post in the "Fire and Money: HSA Account" thread for more details:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsphd View Post
if the husband and/or wife is covered by a "family" high deductible health plan, then if both the husband and wife agree, you could split the "family" HSA contribution anyway you wanted between their two HSA accounts. You could also withdraw money from either account to pay for "Qualified" medical expenses incurred by either person.
__________________
bamsphd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 08:09 PM   #30
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 103
I also think that if both of you are over 55 and have seperate HSA's you can shelter and extra $1000. from the link below

"If both spouses are 55 and older, can both spouses make “catch-up” contributions?
Yes, if both spouses are eligible individuals and both spouses have established an HSA in their name. If only one spouse has an HSA in their name, only that spouse can make a “catch-up” contribution.
"

HSA Ed - HSA Q & A
__________________
GLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 08:12 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLM View Post
I also think that if both of you are over 55 and have seperate HSA's you can shelter and extra $1000. from the link below

"If both spouses are 55 and older, can both spouses make “catch-up” contributions?
Yes, if both spouses are eligible individuals and both spouses have established an HSA in their name. If only one spouse has an HSA in their name, only that spouse can make a “catch-up” contribution.
"

HSA Ed - HSA Q & A
That's a major caveat!!!!!
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 08:14 PM   #32
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsphd View Post
I think the answer is sometimes. See my full post in the "Fire and Money: HSA Account" thread for more details:
I keep running across statements like this one in the HSA FAQ from HSA Bank:

Quote:
May a husband and wife have a joint HSA?
No. Each spouse must open a separate HSA. You can, however, give your spouse access to your HSA by designating them as an authorized signer on the account.
And then there's the catch-up contribution issue.......
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 09:32 PM   #33
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 103
tried reading the IRS instructions for the HSA deduction ( 8889) too late tonight - not sinking in but I did find this on when both Spouses are HSA elligible that reinforces the extra $1000 deduction - - -

which in part says -

"The main disadvantages of this strategy come in two specific scenarios. First, if Keith reaches the age of 55 before Lora, he will forfeit the opportunity to make an additional $1,000 catch up contribution unless he has his own HSA. Second, if Keith’s employer makes contributions to its employees’ HSAs then Keith will miss out on those funds as well."

Rules and Best Practices When Spouses Are Both HSA Eligible | Tango Health
__________________
GLM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 11:04 AM   #34
Recycles dryer sheets
bamsphd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
The answer seems to be sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I keep running across statements like this one in the HSA FAQ from HSA Bank:
Yes, earlier in the "HSA Account" thread I tripped over the same HSA Bank FAQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsphd View Post
Thanks, I had missed that aspect, though it is mentioned in the HSA Bank FAQ.
...
Edit: See revised understanding in my post below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
And then there's the catch-up contribution issue.......
Yes, if both members of the couple are eligible for catch-up contributions two accounts make more sense. That does not apply to my family.
__________________
bamsphd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 03:09 PM   #35
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Yes, but if you are a little too aggressive and slip below 133%, then you lose that cost-sharing benefit, AND the Exchange subsidies, AND if your state didn't expand Medicaid you could be royally screwed. What you say works but it's playing with fire because of how close you are getting to 133%.
Thanks for the caution. I guess I should have mentioned that Missouri is one of those states that is not expanding Medicaid. So for us, the threshold for qualifying for premium and cost-sharing subsidies is a MAGI of 101% of FPL, not 133%. That's why I felt that using 139% was pretty safe. But I appreciate your perspective.
__________________
Rpharmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 03:29 PM   #36
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 217
Am I reading this right,you can only get a subsidy if you go through the government
market place web site, as opposed to say blue cross site.
My son has a real problem giving the govt all the info they want,even for a subsidy.
Why cant you just do this on your regular tax return.
Old Mike
__________________
mf15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #37
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by mf15 View Post
Am I reading this right,you can only get a subsidy if you go through the government
market place web site, as opposed to say blue cross site.
My son has a real problem giving the govt all the info they want,even for a subsidy.
Why cant you just do this on your regular tax return.
Old Mike
Does your son pay taxes? Then the IRS already has a this info. They just don't know what medical insurance he has or what his income might be next year. But they will find that out soon enough anyway.
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 03:56 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by mf15 View Post
My son has a real problem giving the govt all the info they want,even for a subsidy.
Your son may have heard (correctly) that the government site has not passed it's full security assessment, but was granted a waiver and put into service anyway. Maybe he heard (correctly) that a user in North Carolina logged in and received the personal information of people in another state.

Anyway, if a user wants access to the subsidies, he/she must enter their personal info into the web site. The alternative would be to call and speak to someone or send in a form, but the personal info still gets entered in the same databases, just by somebody else. That person might not have passed a background check, and could be a felon (according the Secretary Sebelius). I'm sure most of the people who have been hired are trustworthy.

But, everything should be fixed in a few weeks according to the leader of the team charged with making things work well. So, maybe your son will be more comfortable waiting for more fixes to be implemented. There are security concerns about the system, but if it's any consolation, your son won't be exposed to any higher risk than everyone else.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 04:20 PM   #39
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 217
Yes he has read site that not totally secure.
Glad I am on medicare don't have to deal with this.
Old Mike
__________________
mf15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 05:36 PM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by mf15 View Post
My son has a real problem giving the govt all the info they want,even for a subsidy.
Why cant you just do this on your regular tax return.
Well you won't file your tax return for 2014 until sometime in 2015. Most people want to get their subsidy for 2014 in 2014 not later. And, they can't rely only on people's past tax returns because incomes change over time.

In any event, isn't the information that he will give information that the government already has anyway (or will have in the future when he files a tax return)? What's the concern?
__________________

__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:00 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.