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Old 08-20-2016, 11:40 AM   #81
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That's a slippery slope, society pays for a lot of things that people refuse to take personal responsibility for such as food, children, housing and on and on. Why should health insurance be singled out for a penalty when nothing else has a penalty attached.
I disagree. Society steps in when someone cannot afford health insurance, food, housing and so on, and Obamacare extended that with respect to affordability of health insurance by expanding Medicaid for the really poor and providing subsidies to make health insurance more affordable to low/middle income people.

The penalties are phased in and designed to encourage those who can afford health insurance but are to cheap to pay for it to chip in since if they show up at a hospital with a life threatening event they will be cared for whether they have insurance or not and the rest of us ultimately bear that cost unless they self-pay.

If someone can afford food and refuses to buy food that does not directly affect us. If someone can afford housing but chooses to be homeless that does not directly affect us. OTOH, if someone can afford health insurance and refuses to buy it that does affect us because if they have an event and are provided medical services at no cost to them the rest of us end up paying for it. If as a society we were willing to turn away those who can afford health insurance and refuse to buy it or make them self-pay and collect in advance then you might have a valid point, but alas, as a society that is something that we are not willing to do.
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Old 08-20-2016, 11:52 AM   #82
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Complaints about making health insurance mandatory only surface when the subject is the individual policy. "All must insure" has always been the standard for group policies, yet no one seems to care. Even worse, employees already covered under spousal policies are also required to sign up for employers coverage - thus ensuring excess (and unreimbursed) insurance - yet no one complains.

Self-insure is not the same thing as not-insure. Self-insure means over a period of time the insured, usually an institution or group, will pay in damages or claims about the same as it would pay in premiums, so it opts out of insurance. When middle or lower income individuals opt out of health insurance or choose low coverage options, and then face large healthcare bills, usually for tragic circumstances, they declare bankruptcy.

There is no free ride. Experience with the low cost individual policies in the pre-ACA era show pretty clearly that there is only way to achieve low costs for coverage, and that's by minimizing the payment of claims, one way or another.
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Old 08-20-2016, 01:57 PM   #83
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I agree that self-insure can mean a lot of different things.

Some view buying an individual HI policy as self-insuring because it is not partially subsidized by an employer or subsidies, but it is rare that we see this us of the term.

Most use is as you described for large employer health plans that pay claims and are ASO (administrative services only) and in some cases the employer also buys stop loss coverage.

Another version is a wealthy friend of a friend who just doesn't by health insurance and is self pay.. but when your net worth is measured in tens of millions it isn't a big deal.
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Old 08-20-2016, 02:39 PM   #84
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But in your earlier post you referred to future tax increases... "they'll just keep raising your taxes"... and while there were tax increases in 2013, those are water over the dam and there are no additional tax increases proposed that I am aware of.

Besides, what 3% tax that your employer pays are you referring to? No such thing that I can find.

While technically the penalty is a tax, why should society pay for people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their health care and free-load off the rest of us? I realize there are a small minority of uber-rich who can afford to self-insure, a friend of a friend is in that situation and really objects to the penalty, but they are a very small minority.
Well you didn't use the word afford in this statement...and there again who determines if you can afford something and if you are slacking off because you let others pay for it.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:11 AM   #85
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I promised a report back as the bills came. So far we have just received the bill for the Dr. visit. Dr. billed around $225. Price negotiated by Liberty to $114. Deductible is $500, so I paid $114.

Waiting for the bill for the MRI.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:05 PM   #86
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I promised a report back as the bills came. So far we have just received the bill for the Dr. visit. Dr. billed around $225. Price negotiated by Liberty to $114. Deductible is $500, so I paid $114.
So it sounds like in this case the billing works similar to regular insurance. The doctor sends the bill to Liberty, Liberty negotiates the price, then payment is made. Correct? What happens if/when the doctor, lab, hospital you're using refuses to deal directly with Liberty? Is it up to you to negotiate the price and make the payment then get reimbursed from Liberty?
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Old 09-25-2016, 10:09 PM   #87
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Does not appear that anyone is utilizing this group for healthcare ......
I don't check on this website very often so just saw this thread. I am a member of Christian Healthcare Ministries - Gold Plan plus Brother's Keeper. The Gold Plan is $150 per month and kicks in for medical bills over $500 per incident. Brother's Keeper pays the bills for those that exceed the limits or have pre-existing conditions that are not fully covered. Too complicated to explain in a forum like this. Brother's Keeper is voluntary and usually costs around $25 quarterly or $100 per year. I find this to be far superior to the Obamacare Kaiser I had with a $5,000 deductible that cost me $450 per month. I did have one claim with Kaiser they paid $15 and I paid the $5,000 deductible for an unnecessary emergency room visit they forced me to go to. Fainted in a clinic and off to the hospital I went. Never mind it was the inhaler they forced me to use that caused the fainting. So my one Kaiser experience was an expensive nightmare.

So far I have been healthy and have not had any claims over $500.00 now that I don't have Kaiser! I know of several people that have had surgery and have Christian Healthcare Ministries and all claims have been paid.
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Old 09-25-2016, 10:13 PM   #88
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The answer is you just show you have an active church membership and have a pastor or deacon verify the information.
Lots of misinformation in this thread. There is no verification at least with Christian Healthcare Ministries. You state where you worship and they assume you are not lying.
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Old 09-26-2016, 11:47 AM   #89
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Lots of misinformation in this thread. There is no verification at least with Christian Healthcare Ministries. You state where you worship and they assume you are not lying.
So sorry to have posted something you don't agree with. The plan members of my church were looking into did require verification..so not all plans are the same. The point is at sometime or another you need to declare a certain place of worship to be eligible which is where you get the ACA wavier.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:58 PM   #90
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The point is at sometime or another you need to declare a certain place of worship to be eligible which is where you get the ACA wavier.
The ACA waiver comes from being a member of one of the four approved health sharing ministries, I'm sure ACA could care less where you worship. As I stated earlier listing where you worship seems to only be a requirement with one of the four health sharing ministries.
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Old 09-27-2016, 05:46 PM   #91
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The ACA waiver comes from being a member of one of the four approved health sharing ministries, I'm sure ACA could care less where you worship. As I stated earlier listing where you worship seems to only be a requirement with one of the four health sharing ministries.
Uh, yes you get the waiver by joining a health sharing ministries and the health sharing group set the eligibility requirements. You don't get an individual waiver you are a member of a group with a waiver. Each group could have different requirements. At least that's the way I understand it.

I'm sure for the Christian healthcare ministry you have to declare you are a Christian. Which would mean your place of worship is a Christian church or maybe you can say you worship at home alone IDK.
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Old 09-28-2016, 05:34 AM   #92
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The ACA waiver comes from being a member of one of the four approved health sharing ministries,
Actually, five are approved. Altrua HealthShare, Christian Healthcare Ministries, Liberty HealthShare, Medi-Share, and Samaritan Ministries.

Another, MCS Medical Cost Sharing is not exempt, but offers to reimburse the tax penalties if the member does not qualify for another exemption.
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:41 AM   #93
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Friend of mine just found out, he didn't read the fine print, that Liberty can say you have a preexisting condition and deny the claim in the first year. He thought Liberty met the ACA requirements only to find out they are just "exempt." Buyer beware.
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:08 AM   #94
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Friend of mine just found out, he didn't read the fine print, that Liberty can say you have a preexisting condition and deny the claim in the first year. He thought Liberty met the ACA requirements only to find out they are just "exempt." Buyer beware.
Fine Print? Home page says "not insurance." Second point on the FAQs is pre-existing conditions. Direct link from Home Page, entitled "understanding the ACA" goes to page with headline of "Health Care Sharing is exempt from Obamacare" and subheadline of "Members of Recognized Health Care Sharing Ministries are Exempt From the Requirement to Have Health Insurance."

If only health insurance products had their exclusions in such fine print....

In any event, glad I clicked on this thread; I updated my knowledge on Liberty, which is the only such organization that I could be qualified for.
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Old 09-28-2016, 08:45 AM   #95
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Fine Print? Home page says "not insurance." Second point on the FAQs is pre-existing conditions. Direct link from Home Page, entitled "understanding the ACA" goes to page with headline of "Health Care Sharing is exempt from Obamacare" and subheadline of "Members of Recognized Health Care Sharing Ministries are Exempt From the Requirement to Have Health Insurance."

If only health insurance products had their exclusions in such fine print....

In any event, glad I clicked on this thread; I updated my knowledge on Liberty, which is the only such organization that I could be qualified for.
He brought it up on Facebook hoping he could find someone to help him fight the claim denial. When I went to Liberty's site, I saw what you saw. People need to understand what they are getting into.
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:05 AM   #96
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He brought it up on Facebook hoping he could find someone to help him fight the claim denial. When I went to Liberty's site, I saw what you saw. People need to understand what they are getting into.
What I concept?!? Being responsible. I am sorry for your friend, but they need to learn to read through all of the documentation. One thing about Liberty, that I didn't find in the others is after the first year, coverage pre-existing conditions are phased in.


BTW, received second bill for recent visit. "Insurance" billing wasn't passed on to 3rd party so they are now routing through Liberty. Being charged $495 for a brace. Dr told son it would probably only cost around $100.00 Regardless of what Dr said we are responsible, but I will be letting the Dr know so that she can be more informed about the products in her office.
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:50 PM   #97
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Welp, I received my Health Insurance Packet from Florida Blue ..... For us, our insurance will increase from $1132 Per Mo, to $1450+ ..... Really thinking about Christian Ministries

Anyone else thinking of switching??
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:07 AM   #98
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I received my Health Insurance Packet from Florida Blue ..... For us, our insurance will increase from $1132 Per Mo, to $1450+ ..... Really thinking about Christian Ministries.
In other posts, you say you withdraw $110k per year from taxable IRA accounts. Do you have the flexibility to withdraw to the top of the 25% tax bracket in year 1 and pay the full health insurance premium? In year two, withdraw less than 400% FPL ($64k MAGI) to qualify for subsidies and limit Second Lowest Cost Silver Plan (SLCSP) premiums to 9.69% MAGI ($6202 annually; $517 monthly). IOW, claim premium subsidies every other year sort of like those who bunch deductions every other year.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:34 PM   #99
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unfortunately I have setup annuities, along with DW is now drawing SS.....
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Old 11-04-2016, 10:47 AM   #100
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Rec'd 2nd Statement from Liberty. $900 bill (this would be the MRI). From the statement, we are having to pay $97. At this point, since I haven't received the bill, it looks likes that is because we hit the deductible from the brace, but I haven't received that statement yet. So total bills have been around $1,500, and it looks like our payments will be $500 as advertised.

That being said, we are still staying on the company group plan that covers the rest of the family. Our premiums are rising 14.7% to about $1250/mo, this is a Silver, HMO-HSA qualified plan that is covering 5 people. There are some internal, company-politics involved. Next year, there is a high likelihood that we move the entire family to Liberty. I pay about 56% of the above premiums.
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