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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 11:53 AM   #81
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by F M All
I glanced through the article by the famous dentist Dr Salvatore Durante and then looked him up on Google.
I just read these articles. They can be summarized as follows:

Socialized medicine sucks
Government intervention in healthcare sucks
Government sucks
Unfettered free markets will solve the healthcare woes in the US

All of these articles were written in the early 90s. For the author, it is all black and white. You're either for him or against him. I guess I'm against him.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:00 PM   #82
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by F M All
I glanced through the article by the famous dentist Dr Salvatore Durante and then looked him up on Google. You may be interested to know that he won't accept insurance rates, he insists on payment in full i.e. your insurer pays their part and you pay the difference up to his rate. He justifies this with quotes from his interview with the Ayn Rand Institute.

Real credibility for an analysis of the state of healthcare in the US.

I think I'll pop down to the library and beg JG to come back...............

Yeah, must be really good, too...or else who would pay the extra?. Oh well I'll bet if we force nationalized care on him, he'll just cut back on patients or go out of business altogether. Oh well, who needs him anyway?
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:09 PM   #83
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

My summation on how we got here and where we are going:

Government (with good intentions) creates Medicare and Medicaid resulting in unsustainable demand for services.

Heavy Demand = Heavy Inflation

Government tries to "fix" the problem, by placing Medicare and Medicaid price controls on providers

Heavy Inflation = Necessity for Price Controls

Health Care providers look to private sector to make up for lost income

Inelastic demand + Price Controls = Look for other ways to make money (Health Insurance)
= Increase in health insurance premiums

Private market can no longer sustain Inflation (Crisis Mode of Today's Market) - leaving many uninsured.

Government decides it's a good idea to put in place more price controls (National Health Care)

We can't reverse inflation, and we need our existing doctors, and we now have 49 more million people to give services to, so the taxpayers end up footing the bill (taxes go up like crazy)

Government can't tax the people any more because taxes become 50% of income

Doctor's and hospitals have nowhere else to go for profits, so many are driven out of business. The ones that are left give average care and are content with payment from the goverment. Quality of care is diminished in the long-run.



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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:22 PM   #84
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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We can't reverse inflation, and we need our existing doctors, so the taxpayers end up footing the bill (taxes go up like crazy)
Here is where you make a leap of "reasoning" (using that word extremely loosely) that is not supported by anything, anywhere (nonsense written by cranks on the payroll of drug companies doesn't count).
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:24 PM   #85
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Here is where you make a leap of "reasoning" (using that word extremely loosely) that is not supported by anything, anywhere (nonsense written by cranks on the payroll of drug companies doesn't count).
How can you say that. It is seen that other countries with socialized care generally pay much higher tax rates than the USA. Refer to my previous posts. Do you have evidence otherwise? If so, I would love to hear your opinions. I'm open....
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:27 PM   #86
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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It is seen that other countries with socialized care generally pay much higher tax rates than the USA.
I'm no logician, but you seem pathetically unfamiliar with even the basics of formal logic and reasoning. Would someone care to tell us what the technical term for teh logical fallacy our tinfoil-hatted friend just committed?

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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:29 PM   #87
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Here is where you make a leap of "reasoning" (using that word extremely loosely) that is not supported by anything, anywhere (nonsense written by cranks on the payroll of drug companies doesn't count).
What's not true about it the fact that we won't be able to reverse the inflation, or the fact that we need the doctors, or the fact that socialized health care is paid by the tax payer?
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:42 PM   #88
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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What's not true about it the fact that we won't be able to reverse the inflation, or the fact that we need the doctors, or the fact that socialized health care is paid by the tax payer?
Um, show me hard evidence somewhere that gummint price controls won't be effective. Show me hard evidence that we will have a mass exodus of doctors. Show me hard evidence that the total, all-in costs of a state-run system will be higher than the current messy hodge-podge of public and private stuff. Can't? Well, then, get out the brooms, 'cause I am calling "shenanigans!"
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:45 PM   #89
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
How can you say that. It is seen that other countries with socialized care generally pay much higher tax rates than the USA. Refer to my previous posts. Do you have evidence otherwise? If so, I would love to hear your opinions. I'm open....
Good grief you get old. Did you simply choose to ignore Ladelfina's discussion about how our taxes+health care adds up to more than others' taxes with HC included?
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:51 PM   #90
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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Good grief you get old. Did you simply choose to ignore Ladelfina's discussion about how our taxes+health care adds up to more than others' taxes with HC included?
Of course. It was inconvenient. Half educated Karl Rove style arguing, rather than intelligible debate: that's our tinfoil-hatted pal's MO.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 12:52 PM   #91
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Good grief you get old. Did you simply choose to ignore Ladelfina's discussion about how our taxes+health care adds up to more than others' taxes with HC included?
Of course it is that way in other countires. That would be because they've had price controls in place since the beginning, so they can stifle inflation. We cannot, because our private markets have sustained the inflation for a much longer period in time.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:02 PM   #92
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Of course. It was inconvenient. Half educated Karl Rove style arguing, rather than intelligible debate: that's our tinfoil-hatted pal's MO.
I must say that all of your comments have been very informative and have shown a great deal of intelligence!
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:08 PM   #93
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Um, show me hard evidence somewhere that gummint price controls won't be effective. Show me hard evidence that we will have a mass exodus of doctors. Show me hard evidence that the total, all-in costs of a state-run system will be higher than the current messy hodge-podge of public and private stuff. Can't? Well, then, get out the brooms, 'cause I am calling "shenanigans!"
Government controls can be effective at stopping inflation for a year. Then when the annual budget comes up everyone receives a pay raise, not that I'm complaining about it. Look government controls were tried in NYC for the housing and now they have people who can't make a profit. The end result for medicine would be a government take over and larger government. Aren't you the one who wants less government interaction with your life?

If you READ what MKLD wrote, SHE said that we need all of the doctors we have. I see nothing stating there would be a mass exodus. If there are price controls on the pay doctors receive there will be fewer people willing to undergo the extensive training required. Do you think the doc who was on here a while ago would be willing to undergo all of the training to work in an ER only to be told sorry you now have to work at least 80 hours a week and you will receive a pay cut to boot.

I swear sometimes when I come on here I feel I would have better luck explaining the concept of 2+2 to my dog than having you understand what is common sense.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:14 PM   #94
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Um, show me hard evidence somewhere that gummint price controls won't be effective. Show me hard evidence that we will have a mass exodus of doctors. Show me hard evidence that the total, all-in costs of a state-run system will be higher than the current messy hodge-podge of public and private stuff. Can't? Well, then, get out the brooms, 'cause I am calling "shenanigans!"
Brewer, it's common sense. These are long-term consequences...not mass exodus. At some unknown point in the future, Doctors salaries will be stifled by by price controls. At the point where the taxpayers can no longer sustain inflation (and inflation is inevitable) for Dr./hospital services, the best of the best will slowly but surely (not mass exodus) leave their practices, because the income will not justify the unlimited demand that they are required to satisfy. Nevermind...it really doesn't matter, because by the time that happens, we'll already probably be dead anyways.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:15 PM   #95
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

OK. OK, we need to change to the Nation Health System used by................



............................. HITLER.


Moderators, you can lock this thread now.

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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:22 PM   #96
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Brewer, it's common sense. These are long-term consequences...not mass exodus. At some unknown point in the future, Doctors salaries will be stifled by by price controls. At the point where the taxpayers can no longer sustain inflation (and inflation is inevitable) for Dr./hospital services, the best of the best will slowly but surely (not mass exodus) leave their practices, because the income will not justify the unlimited demand that they are required to satisfy. Nevermind...it really doesn't matter, because by the time that happens, we'll already probably be dead anyways.
OK, since you are interested in absurdities and evidently have never been exposed to the concept of a monopsony, lets think of what happens if we continue in our present morass. Costs continue to spiral at double digit rates and an ever-larger portion of the population becomes uninsured and unable to pay for their care. You got lots of doctors, but only the wealthy can afford them. The rest of the population dies in the streets when they get sick. Make sense? Sound like a healthy system to you?
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:42 PM   #97
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

I understand why there will be big differences in views about how to best fix the current US healthcare system. What I don't understand is why anyone would defend it. It is badly broken and inefficient. Even a FOX news dittohead has to see that, don't they? The only motive I see in opposing major change is to take revenge on "liberals" -- a clear example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:43 PM   #98
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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I understand why there will be big differences in views about how to best fix the current US healthcare system. What I don't understand is why anyone would defend it.


An insurance agent that makes lots of filthy lucre with things just the way they are, apparently.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:43 PM   #99
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
OK, since you are interested in absurdities and evidently have never been exposed to the concept of a monopsony, lets think of what happens if we continue in our present morass. Costs continue to spiral at double digit rates and an ever-larger portion of the population becomes uninsured and unable to pay for their care. You got lots of doctors, but only the wealthy can afford them. The rest of the population dies in the streets when they get sick. Make sense? Sound like a healthy system to you?
That would never happen, because in a free market, inflation would subside as soon as demand = supply. If it got to a point where supply exceeded demand (too many doctors), then they would lower their prices to bring in more business. The consequence is that there will be inequality for a minority of people. However, just as long as the government keeps coming in and trying to make sure that NO ONE is left uninsured, inflation will continue to spiral out of control, because demand will always exceed supply (until price controls are put into place).

**edit...I don't defend the current system and agree that changes need to be made...I'm just not sure what the best way to go is right now. Hybrid systems seem to have some credibility. I prefer capitalistic solutions (like incentives) over socialistic (mandates). Some government contol is necessary to prevent "greed" in an inelastic market.
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it
Old 01-04-2007, 01:48 PM   #100
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Re: Healthy? Insurers don't buy it

One sign that a discussion has reached an end is when one side resorts to "common sense" to defend their position. : That's how my father always ended discussions back in the days of my youth. He had common sense and I didn't. End of discussion and I got sent to my room.
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