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Old 08-06-2009, 09:30 PM   #21
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The problem with reducing carbs is that you need to replace a chunk of the carb calories with protein or fat intake.
Replacing "bad" carbs- i.e. refined grains, sugar, chips, cookies, and excess potatoes- can be accomplished to a substantial degree with "better" carbs like eggplant, greens, beans, whole kernel corn, cauliflower, melon, apples, peaches, berries and the like.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:32 PM   #22
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Replacing "bad" carbs- i.e. refined grains, sugar, and excess potatoes can be accomplished to a substantial degree with "better" carbs like eggplant, greens, beans, whole kernel corn, cauliflower, melon, apples, peaches, berries and the like.
Or you can go out in the pasture and graze...
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:35 PM   #23
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Does that translate as "eat more bacon"?
Actually, from most popular books like South Beach, Protein Power, etc. it does -- really. The nitrates may not be so great but the fat and protein they contain are considered OK. Bacon and eggs, a slice of whole grain bread with butter: just fine (only the bread counts as about 17 grams of carb).

You might enjoy reading Protein Power (Taubes' book mentioned above is not a diet book per se, and is very long and tedious).
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Old 08-07-2009, 07:16 AM   #24
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Or you can go out in the pasture and graze...
If I wanted to return a snide, I'd say, ". . . or stay at the trough," but I won't.
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Old 08-07-2009, 07:25 AM   #25
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If I wanted to return a snide, I'd say, ". . . or stay at the trough," but I won't.
Well, had you been snide and made the comment, it wouldn't have been as though I didn't deserve it...

Thanks for the food suggestions.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:22 AM   #26
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This is part of what Dr. John McDougall says about reversing heart disease:

"An expected part of aging in Western societies is to have the arteries feeding your heart, brain, legs, and penis close down by atherosclerosis. Yet these problems are almost never found in populations of people who follow a diet low in animal-derived and processed foods, such as those living in rural Asia, Africa, and Central and South America. The matter that clogs the arteries is living tissue (not concrete) and therefore, can heal given the right environment. To clean up your arteries (reverse atherosclerosis), a very low-fat, no-cholesterol diet must be followed strictly. Immediate benefits, such as relief of chest pains (angina) and tolerance for more exercise, are seen within days. Heart surgery fails to prolong life in the vast majority of people and is fraught with serious side effects, including permanent brain damage don't go this route unless you have no other choice."
Hot Topics: Heart Disease & Atherosclerosis
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:51 AM   #27
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This is part of what Dr. John McDougall says about reversing heart disease:

"An expected part of aging in Western societies is to have the arteries feeding your heart, brain, legs, and penis close down by atherosclerosis. Yet these problems are almost never found in populations of people who follow a diet low in animal-derived and processed foods, such as those living in rural Asia, Africa, and Central and South America. The matter that clogs the arteries is living tissue (not concrete) and therefore, can heal given the right environment. To clean up your arteries (reverse atherosclerosis), a very low-fat, no-cholesterol diet must be followed strictly. Immediate benefits, such as relief of chest pains (angina) and tolerance for more exercise, are seen within days. Heart surgery fails to prolong life in the vast majority of people and is fraught with serious side effects, including permanent brain damage – don't go this route unless you have no other choice."
Hot Topics: Heart Disease & Atherosclerosis
I don't think we know for sure whether the benefits of that kind of diet derive from reduction in fats, cholesterol, etc. or whether they are due primarily to the drastic reduction in refined carbs which accompanies it; the evidence seems to be leaning toward the carbs playing the major role (Taubes' book summarizes).

Alas, we may never know since diet-health studies are very difficult to do for lots of reasons, and cross-cultural comparisons are frought with confounding genetic and lifestyle variables. That said, many Inuit populationis go for months every year eating almost nothing but seal fat and meat, virtually no carbs, and have very low rates of coronary disease - a tantalizing observation, not a cause-and-effect assumption.

Another observation from the lab suggests that eating fatty foods is not harmful while your carb intake is low, but if you combine fats with high carbs, the accompanying insulin surge makes the fats more harmful by promoting their deposition into fat cells more rapidly, and making them more difficult to mobilize back out. Insulin seems to be a common thread in many of these studies.
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:24 AM   #28
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That said, many Inuit populationis go for months every year eating almost nothing but seal fat and meat, virtually no carbs, and have very low rates of coronary disease - a tantalizing observation, not a cause-and-effect assumption.
One thing to remember is that they eat a lot of (exclusively?) raw meat. As I understand it, there is just enough Vitamin C in raw meat to prevent scurvy. Cooking would drop the content below the threshold.

IIRC, some of these diets seem to indicate that they cut heart disease, but actually increase the chance of stroke (Okinowa studies?). I've seen both in my family, and I'd rather have the heart disease if I had to choose (of course, it's never that simple or direct cause/effect).

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Old 08-07-2009, 10:27 AM   #29
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I saw a nice gain in good cholesterol and decrase in bad cholesterol after doing the Atkins diet. Of course, I also lost about 50 lbs. Then moved into a modified Southbeach with higher fiber intake.

I stopped since I was still losing weight. I should do a couple weeks of Atkins again to drop 5 lbs.

6 egg omlette with 1/2 a pound of bacon every morning! Thats my kind of diet.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:22 PM   #30
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One thing to remember is that they eat a lot of (exclusively?) raw meat. As I understand it, there is just enough Vitamin C in raw meat to prevent scurvy. Cooking would drop the content below the threshold.

IIRC, some of these diets seem to indicate that they cut heart disease, but actually increase the chance of stroke (Okinowa studies?). I've seen both in my family, and I'd rather have the heart disease if I had to choose (of course, it's never that simple or direct cause/effect).

-ERD50
Taubes cites studies of English sailors who were vitamin C deficient but had plenty of cured meat and other non-carbs on board, and never developed scurvy; after months at sea they might finally reach a port where bread and other carbs were abundant and they would set sail again; within weeks of adding lots of carbs to their diet, they would develop scurvy. Hard to explain and of uncertain accuracy but interesting.
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:02 PM   #31
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Taubes cites studies of English sailors who were vitamin C deficient but had plenty of cured meat and other non-carbs on board, and never developed scurvy; after months at sea they might finally reach a port where bread and other carbs were abundant and they would set sail again; within weeks of adding lots of carbs to their diet, they would develop scurvy. Hard to explain and of uncertain accuracy but interesting.
Here's another interesting tie-in - Just last night I read the chapter in "The Seven Daughters of Eve" (about tracing the mitochondrial DNA in Europe back through the maternal lines to just seven mothers) that dealt with the emergence of grain farming. He said that while the women were eating mostly meat, that their menstrual cycles would cease the entire time they breast fed their children. This acted to help space births out several years, so that a family was not strained by too many to care for at one time.

He went on to say that higher carb intakes interfered with this, women would become fertile while still breast feeding, and populations zoomed (since they also had a food supply in addition to hunting). Women could tend gardens with children while the men hunted. And this in turn led to disease, since people were more closely packed together.

I always thought the claim that we were evolved to eat meat, not grains and veggies was a stretch by those promoting this or that diet, but I'm rethinking that now.

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Old 08-07-2009, 02:11 PM   #32
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As to propositions about eating "just meat" and citing, for example, the inuits, they did not eat feed lot cattle. They ate marine mammals and arctic fish with a balance strongly favoring omega 3 fatty acids-nothing resembling the fat from supermarket pork chops and corn fed ground sirloin. Grains are an issue-particularly refined grains-which, of course, comprise the bulk of "grains" in the standard American diet. the significance of the evolutionary diet is a complicated science, brimming with controversy, but one well worth pursuing if one is trying to forge an informed way of formulating day to day diet choices.
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:51 PM   #33
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The Omnivore's Dilemma.

Worth reading along with Taubes.
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Old 08-07-2009, 04:49 PM   #34
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Personally, I am trying to move towards something similar to what Dr. Fuhrman seems to be proposing. (I just briefly browsed each web site.) My personal plan revolves around reducing my total caloric intake as much as possible while still obtaining adequate nutrition and without making my life otherwise unbearable.

In my opinion, Calorie Restriction is dietary approach with the most promise that has been subject to the the best research to date: Research that will change your life! | CRS

In addition to reducing my total caloric intake, I am slowly moving to a diet based less in meat protein with lower total fat and refined carbs.

My current targets are 2,000 Kcal/ day with less than 20% of that being from fat and at least 85 g. protein. Anectdotally, I feel much better. Various blood test have indicated some imperical improvements; but, I am not sure they are statistically siginficant yet.

While I have not had any indications of health issues yet (recently had several normal EKG's, stress tests, and a boat load of blood work in a medical study), my father died at 50 with a heart attack and his brother died younger. So, I try to eat fairly well, exercise, and am hoping to retire very soon.
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:48 PM   #35
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Does that translate as "eat more bacon"?
Odd, I read that as "eat more fish"... but you probably find more bacon in your back yard than I do!

The good news is that with a lot of time and strenuous miserable effort the mind can override the body's instincts. I've learned to eat fish at least 4-6x/week and even a bunch of broccoli. (Any day now I'm afraid of seeing that documentary CFB always talks about, "Broccoli: The Silent Killer".) I've cut almost all of the chocolate out of my weekly diet, as we have the sugar in cereal. We've even substituted ground pork & ground turkey for ground beef.

I never even knew that the word "tofu" could be part of the term "spaghetti sauce". Good thing my dearly departed mother can't learn what I've done to her recipe.

The upshot of eating like this for the last year is that my BP has cratered to 105/60. That's after six years of ER and never going lower than 120/80. Now I get a head rush every time I haul my butt out of the recliner.

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The Omnivore's Dilemma.
Worth reading along with Taubes.
Excellent book!
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:54 PM   #36
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[quote=Nords;843009]Odd, I read that as "eat more fish"...
/quote]

Your lucky to be living in a region where fresh ocean fish is local. Have you read Laird Hamilton's fitness book? Very inspirational-not too scientific-but some nice descriptions of the seafood he and Gabrielle weave into their diet. One of my favorite parts was the profile of Laird's buddy, geezer-jock Don Wildman, mid-70's fitness stud.
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:05 PM   #37
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Another observation from the lab suggests that eating fatty foods is not harmful while your carb intake is low, but if you combine fats with high carbs, the accompanying insulin surge makes the fats more harmful by promoting their deposition into fat cells more rapidly, and making them more difficult to mobilize back out. Insulin seems to be a common thread in many of these studies.
That makes ice cream a dangerous food. Hmmm.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:18 AM   #38
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This is part of what Dr. John McDougall says about reversing heart disease:

"An expected part of aging in Western societies is to have the arteries feeding your heart, brain, legs, and penis close down by atherosclerosis.
I suppose that some treatments for impotence might also improve the health of arteries in general.

Impotence is a warning sign. According to Dr Graham Jackson, "On average the erection problem comes about three years before the heart attack."

When a family member had died of a heart attack, I recovered a book about aging that I lent him. I found a bookmark in the chapter about impotence... so I suppose he had that warning sign.

In a (very small scale) test for BBC television, impotence was cured in 6 men out of 7 who daily ate four raw cloves of “Murado garlic” (a commen type of garlic), probably because it restored the blood circulation in the clogged arteries. For a potent effect the cloves need to be pressed or cut before they’re eaten. The video says they should be "eaten within ten minutes of chopping" and they should be eaten raw. (I suspect they meant “after ten minutes” instead of “within ten minutes”)
Source: Truth about food "Is garlic a natural cure for male impotence?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/tr...onflash.shtml*

Arginine supplements have big results, even over a short time period. Men were divided into two groups of 15. One group was given a mere 2.8 grams of oral arginine for two weeks’ time. Six of the men who were given this minimal dose experienced significant improvement in their ability to achieve an erection. None of the men in the placebo group showed any sign of improvement.
Source: Zorgniotti, A.W. and Lizza, E.F., “Effect of Large Doses of Nitric Oxide Precursor, L-Arginine, on Erectile Dysfunction,” International Journal of Impotence Research,” 6 (1994) 33-36.

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Old 08-08-2009, 01:55 PM   #39
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Odd, I read that as "eat more fish"...
Your lucky to be living in a region where fresh ocean fish is local. Have you read Laird Hamilton's fitness book? Very inspirational-not too scientific-but some nice descriptions of the seafood he and Gabrielle weave into their diet. One of my favorite parts was the profile of Laird's buddy, geezer-jock Don Wildman, mid-70's fitness stud.
Sorry, I'm an enthusiastic surfer but I'm definitely not a Hamilton fan. Gabby's made amazing progress in his domestication but he's burned through almost as much aloha around here as Sonny Garcia.

Believe it or not, I don't eat much fresh local fish. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy to relieve a buddy of some of his 100+ pounds of fresh-caught ahi or mahi mahi when his cooler fills up, but my fish diet comes pretty much out of the Coleson's grocery-freezer cabinet and a daily fish-oil capsule.

I'm also surprised at how much less I need to eat. We form our eating habits pretty early in life, but every 6-12 months for the past five years I've knocked another 100 calories out of my daily consumption and realized that it wasn't necessary to supporting life. Part of that was recognizing a writer's comment that he couldn't really adjust to his changing food needs until he ended his emotional relationship with eating and saw it as just "refueling". I'm not a calorie-restriction zealot but I can see that we humans eat a lot more out of entertainment/boredom than from our nutritional requirements.

But this is probably unusual behavior-- I don't care to cook and I can eat the same daily diet for weeks on end. Seems to be working for me but I wouldn't get a magazine article out of it, much less a book.
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Old 08-09-2009, 03:09 AM   #40
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Odd, I read that as "eat more fish"... but you probably find more bacon in your back yard than I do!
Go pig hunting with a bounty hunter, Nords. All the bacon you can eat, and you know how it was killed because you did it yourself! Plus, you're saving the environment. That's a win-win for everyone but the pig!

As far as diet -- I know a couple of folks who (for different reasons, all health-related) follow a raw vegan diet. It seems pretty extreme, but it gets the refined carbs problem out of the way quick. There's no easy way to eat raw white flour. Some of their recipes sound delicious! I think it might be a hard lifestyle change, but they both seem happier for it. They both also take nutritional supplements to make sure they're getting their B-vitamins and other nutrients.

I also heard about the RAVE diet on PBS. Checked the book out of the library. Very interesting. I'm thinking of checking it out again, reading it again and then doing my own research to see if any solid medical studies have been done on it. Anyone else tried this diet?
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