Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

[mykidslovedogs]

I believe that this 'fact' has very little to do with the skin color of the people in question.

Here's a chart. It might have something to do with skin color, but what diff. would it make if they lived in the USA vs. Canada? I'm just trying to point out that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system we have. There is no coorelation.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

Oops - guess I shouldn't have included hispanics in those statistics..Point is, USA has a very high population of races that happen to have higher infant mortality rates than Canada, and that's where the discrepancy comes in. It really has not much to do with the type of healthcare system we have.

 

[sgeeeee]

Here's a chart. It might have something to do with skin color, but what diff. would it make if they lived in the USA vs. Canada? I'm just trying to point out that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system we have. There is no coorelation.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

I would like to hear your reasoning for concluding that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system? How does your argument depend on the chart?

 

[mykidslovedogs]

I would like to hear your reasoning for concluding that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system? How does your argument depend on the chart?

Canada has a very small population of races other than white. Whites have very low infant mortality stats as compares to other races. Our stats are higher because of the large mix of different races we have in our country.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hmm. Let me help you a bit. Poor people have lousy healthcare, lousy eating habits, a higher rate of drug and alcohol use, etc. I would suspect that if you fill in the healthcare portion of the program, you'd solve at least part of the problem.

In any case, poor white people would fare just the same. You might try finding a chart based on mortality rates vs income level.

I might suggest you rethink this argument. Besides there being very little factual basis to support this claim, and you've probably turned a fair number of people off with the skin color comments.

If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.

 

[mykidslovedogs]

Hmm. Let me help you a bit. Poor people have lousy healthcare, lousy eating habits, a higher rate of drug and alcohol use, etc. I would suspect that if you fill in the healthcare portion of the program, you'd solve at least part of the problem.

In any case, poor white people would fare just the same. You might try finding a chart based on mortality rates vs income level.

I might suggest you rethink this argument. Besides there being very little factual basis to support this claim, and you've probably turned a fair number of people off with the skin color comments.

If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.

Excuse me for mentioning skin color. We have plenty of poor whites in our country too. But even with that, our stats happen to be much lower than other races. We also have a lot of rich black people, but again, even with that, their stats are higher. We have a huge number of poor hispanics, yet why are their infant mortality rates lower than blacks, and I guess, even according to the chart I gave earlier, a little bit lower than whites? Why is it that when someone says the word "Black" or "Indian" or 'Hispanic" it's offensive. It's just a fact.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Let me help you again.

There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.

Whats offensive to me, in this particular instance, is someone who doesnt have the facts and in the process of disseminating their weakly correlated arguments, also insults several entire races during the discourse.

But do go on.

 

[mykidslovedogs]

Let me help you again.

There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.

Whats offensive to me, in this particular instance, is someone who doesnt have the facts and in the process of disseminating their weakly correlated arguments, also insults several entire races during the discourse.

But do go on.

Well, we have a lot more poor hispanics (as a percentage of the hispanic population) than poor whites (as a percentage of the white population), but their infant mortality numbers are a bit lower than whites according to that chart (I stand corrected). Why? It must not be related to poverty.... which means then, that it probably doesn't have much to do with the healthcare system either.

Here it is again....no insults...just facts...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

Point is, Canada is primarily white. Are you saying that most countries with a majority of whites would be less bigoted than in the USA? I doubt it! You can't compare Canada's numbers to the USA, because there is no correlation between the mix of races in Canada vs. the mix of races in the USA.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'll give you a hint. It has a lot to do with lifestyle, much of which is dictated by wealth or lack thereof.

Another hint, it doesnt have a thing to do with skin color.

"However, variation exists among states regarding the reporting of Hispanic origin of the mother on birth certificates (7). Second, even with 8 years of data combined, reliable IMRs for all racial/ethnic populations in each state and DC could not be obtained because of small population sizes, especially among American Indians/Alaska Natives. Finally, racial and ethnic compositions of women of childbearing age at the state level might have changed from 1995 to 2002"

In other words, the data may be funny, its probably incomplete, it might be invalid, and the sample sets might have changed over the time period.

Also, this data shows only the racial makeup of the mother, so we only have half of the story at best.

If the facts actually showed that shipping all the african american and hispanic people to canada would make no difference, as you allege, then I suppose there'd be little insult. Except that people would be insulted anyhow.

As it is, it appears that the facts do not support your assertion. I see no way to take weakly constructed data of limited statistical viability that was created for a particular purpose and superimposing it onto a different country and culture with no basis, study or rationale for repurposing the data and calling it 'a fact'.

 

[samclem]

There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.

Just to be precise:
In America, The percentage of poor "people of color" is higher than the percentage of poor "white" people, but there are more poor "white" people than poor "people of color."

BTW: I can't wait until enough people finally refuse to give their "race" in response to these questionaires and polls that the useless tabulations of race scorecards can no longer be produced. I do my part in this regard. Economic background trumps race by a mile in all meaningful measures of social standing/priviledge/opportunty in America. Who's going to have more opportunities: the child of the white coal miner or the child of the black neurosurgeon?

 

[brewer12345]

Whoops! MKLD just fell through the outhouse seat.

Ha

I think that happened several months ago, actually.

So in addition to her other "charms," MKLD is a racist dirtbag. I didn't think she could drop any further in my estimation, but, well, there it is.

**, lady!

Oh yeah:

Edit: the usual

 

[Freein05]

The following is from Third World Traveler: I would agree that there is a lot of political propaganda in the US by those who make money ( a lot of money) off our current system and do not want a change. These people are doing it for pure greed they do not care about health care. I will not name them but I think you know who I mean. They only care about their bank account!

“Claims of excessive waiting lists are the "political theater" of publicly funded health care everywhere in the world. In fact, when asked, most Canadians on waiting lists do not find their waits problematic. Claims of under-funding play an obvious role in the bargaining process between providers and governments. The former cry, "More money for health!"; they mean higher incomes for themselves.
Obviously, health care also matters, and the Canadian health care system is very good at delivering care to the people who need it, whether or not they can pay. (this is the reason for lower infant mortality not race) Cross-border, comparative studies suggest that both the Canadian and American systems serve people in middle- and upper-income groups well, but that there are marked differences in access to care and outcomes for people with lower incomes. It would be very surprising if this were not so. About 40 million Americans have no insurance at all, and those who are covered increasingly face large user fees.

However, reviews of waits in Canada have found that the system provides immediate access for emergency cases and rapid access for urgent ones. Because there have been remarkable increases in the numbers of cataract, bypass, hip, and knee procedures performed in Canada in recent years, rationing of care is no longer a real issue.”

 

[mykidslovedogs]

I think that happened several months ago, actually.

So in addition to her other "charms," MKLD is a racist dirtbag. I didn't think she could drop any further in my estimation, but, well, there it is.

**, lady!

Oh yeah:

Edit: the usual

Whatever...I have lots of friends of many different ethnicities. My points are based on fact. OK - so I used the word "Black" instead of "African American"...I apologize if that offends people.

People of certain socio-economic status are at greater risk for higher infant mortality rates. This would be true whether they lived in Canada or in the USA. Blacks happen to have higher rates than whites, and Hispanics have lower rates than whites. I didn't invent the numbers.

We can't use poverty as the sole reason for the problem. We also have to consider lifestyle choices such as smoking while pregnant, getting pregnant during adolecense, etc. If Canada had the same mix of races, and the very same cultural values as we have in the USA, it would be a foregone conclusion that the healthcare system is the reason why our infant mortality rates are higher, but the two countries have very different mixes of races and ethnicities, so people should stop trying to prove that our system is worse, just because our infant mortality rates are higher. If it were true that poverty and access to care for people who live in poverty was the main reason for the problem, then the numbers for Hispanics would then be much higher than whites, correct? But they are not, they are at or below the figures for white people


Some people on the board are saying that poverty is the reason, but we certainly have way lower poverty rates than many other countries, yet our numbers, overall, are higher. Hmmmm, why would that be? Maybe it has something to do with the cultural values and lifestyles held by different people of varying ethnicity?....

 

[Brat]

OK, let's get off the issue of the association between ethnicity and illness because the reasons for any association are complex social issues. Let's agree that illness costs us all. Sick infants are expensive in both the short and long term. Maternal health impacts the health of children. Often sick moms-to-be deliver sick babies.

When I was in grade school we had classes that included nutrition, meal preparation and infant care. We also had a PE teacher and a school nurse. This was right after WW II, the neighborhood included kids from the south whose parents worked in shipyards as well as displaced refugees from Europe. There was a public health focus because there were concerns about tuberculosis, small pox and STDs (for a start).

Let's get back to basics. I have seen both ends of the social-economic spectrum. Let me assure you that wealth and education by the adults is no assurance of a healthy lifestyle for the family.

 

[mykidslovedogs]

If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.

So are you saying that America has more poor people than Canada, and that's why our infant mortality numbers are higher? Our poorest Americans have access to Medicaid, so how can we say that it's an access to care issue for our poor people that leads to the discrepancy?

It's very frustrating to me that people always point to infant mortality as proof that our healthcare system is worse than in other countries. I don't think you can tie the two together.

 

[Freein05]

So are you saying that America has more poor people than Canada, and that's why our infant mortality numbers are higher? Our poorest Americans have access to Medicaid, so how can we say that it's an access to care issue for our poor people that leads to the discrepancy?

It's very frustrating to me that people always point to infant mortality as proof that our healthcare system is worse than in other countries. I don't think you can tie the two together.

Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!

Just to clear something up you keep saying Canada is a white mans paradise for your information almost 17% of Canadians are non-white. The US population is about 32% non-white. Canada is also facing a large influx of Chinese that will push that number up.

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .My points are based on fact. . . .

No. . . they aren't. You have used facts illogically. Your points are based on faulty reasoning. Correlation does not imply cause. You are wrong.

 

[lets-retire]

Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!

But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :

 

[Martha]

But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :

Medicaid and Medicare are different and states have a lot of imput into Medicaid. Medicaid is seriously underfunded, with lots of cuts in a number of states in recent years. The population on medicaid, the disabled poor and poor children, have no strong lobby.

Just because you are poor does not mean you are eligible for Medicaid.

 

[OKLibrarian]

Just because you are poor does not mean you are eligible for Medicaid.

in fact if you're over 18, you pretty much *aren't* eligible for medicaid, unless you are A: disabled, B: over 65, or C: make less than some absurdly small number (something like 7-800/month IIRC). The criteria are more generous if you're pregnant, but that ends 3 months after the baby's born.

And I don't trust my temper to make any other comments on this thread.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

No. . . they aren't. You have used facts illogically. Your points are based on faulty reasoning. Correlation does not imply cause. You are wrong.

Ding ding ding.

"I'm just speaking facts, even when someone has already demonstrated that the facts are probably not particularly factual and have no application in the case i'm trying to make".

Whatever that is.... :

I'll try again, even though (tap tap tap) I dont think this thing is on. My wifes dad is hispanic. Her mom is white. Her birth certificate says she's white. She is quite hispanic looking. Her parents were quite poor when she was young and had no health care. My son has a half hispanic mother and a mutt father. His birth certificate says he's white. He's growing up in a very affluent household with health care.

Now, how would you slice any of that data and/or find any correlation between the various races (which arent accurate) with the economic situations?

You cant.

All I know is that with the exception of people who have great health care paid for by someone else, nobody seems to think the health care situation is very good. Granted, injecting the government into any situation rarely solves as many problems as it causes, but there are some things that just dont work in the public sector.

I'm trying to imagine the army being run by the current network of health professionals, insurance companies, individuals and other assorted contributors. and...I...just....cant.

 

[Martha]

in fact if you're over 18, you pretty much *aren't* eligible for medicaid, unless you are A: disabled, B: over 65, or C: make less than some absurdly small number (something like 7-800/month IIRC). The criteria are more generous if you're pregnant, but that ends 3 months after the baby's born.

This is somewhat state dependant. States don't have to provide any benefits to you if you are over 18 and not disabled, even if you have no money at all. EDIT to add: States divide low income people into three groups: children, parents of children, and non-parent adults. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, in 40 of 50 states non-parent adults are not eligible for Medicaid at all, even if they do not have a penny to their name, unless they are fully and completely disabled. The remaining 10 states provide some coverage but it is very limited.

And I don't trust my temper to make any other comments on this thread.

Yes, I pretty much am keeping quiet myself.

 

[mykidslovedogs]

Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!

Just to clear something up you keep saying Canada is a white mans paradise for your information almost 17% of Canadians are non-white. The US population is about 32% non-white. Canada is also facing a large influx of Chinese that will push that number up.

Asian Americans have the lowest infant mortality rates. So...an influx of Asians should bring the numbers down further.

Let's look at the infant mortality numbers again:

White 5.8
Black 13.8
Hispanic 5.7
Indian 9
Asian/Pacific Islander 5.1

Looking at these numbers, it's hard to believe that poverty due to racial discrimination is the sole reason why infant mortality rates go up in the black population. If that were true, Hispanics and Asians would have higher numbers too.

Again - The point is that we can't simply make the coorelation between poverty (resulting in lack of access to care) and infant mortality rates. If that were true, we would have much higher numbers in the Hispanic population.

You have to take into consideration also, teen pregnancy rates, smoking drug and alcohol abuse while pregnant, level of education, etc. These other factors would probably be similar regardless of where the people live. That's why I am saying that if the USA had the same exact mix of races that Canada has, then our numbers would be similar to Canada, regardless of the type of health system we have.

You all are not getting the point. How can I be labeled a bigot, just because I believe that you can't compare Canada's and the USA's infant mortality rates until you either move more non-white Americans to Canada or move more White Canadians to the USA?

That's it. Period. The numbers are what they are. The numbers have to do with a wide variety of factors, including poverty, education, culture, teenage pregnancy rates, smoking drug and alcohol abuse, etc. You can't just blame poverty and the healthcare system on the difference.

 

[Freein05]

But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :

Your current president has cut funding for Medicaid to the point where it is a joke. It is nothing like Medicare. Medicaid is run by the states and how bad or how very bad it is depends on how much the state can or is willing to make up for the cut in funding our compassionate president has cut!

 

[Martha]

Again - The point is that we can't simply make the coorelation between poverty (resulting in lack of access to care) and infant mortality rates. If that were true, we would have much higher numbers in the Hispanic population.

Yes you can.

I don't know where to start or where to stop, but I thought I should suggest that people look at the CDC if they want some figures on mortality and poverty.

For example, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the infant mortality rate for babies born to women living in households with incomes below the poverty line is 60% higher than for babies of nonpoor women. CDC concluded that poverty raises infant morality rates as much as smoking during pregnancy or inadequate prenatal care.


Also, study after study has established a correlation between low income and adult mortality.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8616393

 

[mykidslovedogs]

Your current president has cut funding for Medicaid to the point where it is a joke. It is nothing like Medicare. Medicaid is run by the states and how bad or how very bad it is depends on how much the state can or is willing to make up for the cut in funding our compassionate president has cut!

Cuts in funding always end up happening eventually in "socialized" systems of care. It was inevitable. It's the beginning of rationing. After the cuts happening, that's when we start ending up with shortages of care, etc...It would be the same, eventually, if we went national with the entire system.

First, you tax the people to death to pay for it. When you can't tax anymore, then you start cutting funding (cost control). When you can't do that anymore, you start ending up with shortages of care. That's the natural progression of a socialized system.