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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 08:42 PM   #121
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
I can't believe I just read that.
But it's true. Infant mortaliy rates have more to do with socio-economic status than they do with socialized vs. for-profit care. It's just a matter of fact, and has nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice. Blacks and hispanics simply have higher infant mortality rates than other races. - it's a matter of fact.

The fact that Canadians live longer has nothing to do with whether the care there is superior or not. It's the quality of life when you are sick, IMO, that matters most, and waiting for care while in excruciating pain is not a good solution to me.

In America, there are statistics showing that up to 50% of healthcare problems/costs can be attributed to obesity, smoking, and alcohol and drug abuse. These are social issues that have very little to do with whether the healthcare system is socialized or not. For whatever reason, people in other countries seem to live healthier lifestyles than in the USA. Could it have anything to do with moral values? (IMO, of which we have no more here in the USA?). With the family unit falling apart, and little regard for morality, people look to entertainment, work, food, drugs and alcohol to make up for the happiness that we are missing out on.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 08:48 PM   #122
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
It's just a matter of fact, and has nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice. Blacks and hispanics simply have higher infant mortality rates than other races. - it's a matter of fact.
I believe that this 'fact' has very little to do with the skin color of the people in question.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 08:55 PM   #123
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

So do we have any life expectancy comparisons of US, Canada and England across people of the same economic range?

The real test: Do wealthy Canadians have to pay more for an annuity?

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:05 PM   #124
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
I can't believe I just read that.
Whoops! MKLD just fell through the outhouse seat.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:06 PM   #125
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
. . . Canada's population is primarily white. If we moved all of the blacks and hispanics from the USA to Canada, Canada's infant mortality rates would be higher. . .
Unbelievable.

I think we should just send all sick people to Canada. It would save us a lot of money and they apparently would have a better chance of getting good care.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:07 PM   #126
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I believe that this 'fact' has very little to do with the skin color of the people in question.
Here's a chart. It might have something to do with skin color, but what diff. would it make if they lived in the USA vs. Canada? I'm just trying to point out that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system we have. There is no coorelation.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

Oops - guess I shouldn't have included hispanics in those statistics..Point is, USA has a very high population of races that happen to have higher infant mortality rates than Canada, and that's where the discrepancy comes in. It really has not much to do with the type of healthcare system we have.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:12 PM   #127
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Here's a chart. It might have something to do with skin color, but what diff. would it make if they lived in the USA vs. Canada? I'm just trying to point out that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system we have. There is no coorelation.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

I would like to hear your reasoning for concluding that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system? How does your argument depend on the chart?
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:14 PM   #128
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I would like to hear your reasoning for concluding that we can't tie infant mortality rates to the type of healthcare system? How does your argument depend on the chart?
Canada has a very small population of races other than white. Whites have very low infant mortality stats as compares to other races. Our stats are higher because of the large mix of different races we have in our country.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:15 PM   #129
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Hmm. Let me help you a bit. Poor people have lousy healthcare, lousy eating habits, a higher rate of drug and alcohol use, etc. I would suspect that if you fill in the healthcare portion of the program, you'd solve at least part of the problem.

In any case, poor white people would fare just the same. You might try finding a chart based on mortality rates vs income level.

I might suggest you rethink this argument. Besides there being very little factual basis to support this claim, and you've probably turned a fair number of people off with the skin color comments.

If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:17 PM   #130
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Hmm. Let me help you a bit. Poor people have lousy healthcare, lousy eating habits, a higher rate of drug and alcohol use, etc. I would suspect that if you fill in the healthcare portion of the program, you'd solve at least part of the problem.

In any case, poor white people would fare just the same. You might try finding a chart based on mortality rates vs income level.

I might suggest you rethink this argument. Besides there being very little factual basis to support this claim, and you've probably turned a fair number of people off with the skin color comments.

If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.
Excuse me for mentioning skin color. We have plenty of poor whites in our country too. But even with that, our stats happen to be much lower than other races. We also have a lot of rich black people, but again, even with that, their stats are higher. We have a huge number of poor hispanics, yet why are their infant mortality rates lower than blacks, and I guess, even according to the chart I gave earlier, a little bit lower than whites? Why is it that when someone says the word "Black" or "Indian" or 'Hispanic" it's offensive. It's just a fact.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:20 PM   #131
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Let me help you again.

There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.

Whats offensive to me, in this particular instance, is someone who doesnt have the facts and in the process of disseminating their weakly correlated arguments, also insults several entire races during the discourse.

But do go on.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:23 PM   #132
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Let me help you again.

There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.

Whats offensive to me, in this particular instance, is someone who doesnt have the facts and in the process of disseminating their weakly correlated arguments, also insults several entire races during the discourse.

But do go on.
Well, we have a lot more poor hispanics (as a percentage of the hispanic population) than poor whites (as a percentage of the white population), but their infant mortality numbers are a bit lower than whites according to that chart (I stand corrected). Why? It must not be related to poverty.... which means then, that it probably doesn't have much to do with the healthcare system either.

Here it is again....no insults...just facts...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/50_12t1.pdf

Point is, Canada is primarily white. Are you saying that most countries with a majority of whites would be less bigoted than in the USA? I doubt it! You can't compare Canada's numbers to the USA, because there is no correlation between the mix of races in Canada vs. the mix of races in the USA.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 09:49 PM   #133
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

I'll give you a hint. It has a lot to do with lifestyle, much of which is dictated by wealth or lack thereof.

Another hint, it doesnt have a thing to do with skin color.

"However, variation exists among states regarding the reporting of Hispanic origin of the mother on birth certificates (7). Second, even with 8 years of data combined, reliable IMRs for all racial/ethnic populations in each state and DC could not be obtained because of small population sizes, especially among American Indians/Alaska Natives. Finally, racial and ethnic compositions of women of childbearing age at the state level might have changed from 1995 to 2002"

In other words, the data may be funny, its probably incomplete, it might be invalid, and the sample sets might have changed over the time period.

Also, this data shows only the racial makeup of the mother, so we only have half of the story at best.

If the facts actually showed that shipping all the african american and hispanic people to canada would make no difference, as you allege, then I suppose there'd be little insult. Except that people would be insulted anyhow.

As it is, it appears that the facts do not support your assertion. I see no way to take weakly constructed data of limited statistical viability that was created for a particular purpose and superimposing it onto a different country and culture with no basis, study or rationale for repurposing the data and calling it 'a fact'.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 10:01 PM   #134
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
There are a lot more poor people of color than poor white people in america.

Its just a fact.
Just to be precise:
In America, The percentage of poor "people of color" is higher than the percentage of poor "white" people, but there are more poor "white" people than poor "people of color."

BTW: I can't wait until enough people finally refuse to give their "race" in response to these questionaires and polls that the useless tabulations of race scorecards can no longer be produced. I do my part in this regard. Economic background trumps race by a mile in all meaningful measures of social standing/priviledge/opportunty in America. Who's going to have more opportunities: the child of the white coal miner or the child of the black neurosurgeon?
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 10:15 PM   #135
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by HaHa
Whoops! MKLD just fell through the outhouse seat.

Ha
I think that happened several months ago, actually.

So in addition to her other "charms," MKLD is a racist dirtbag. I didn't think she could drop any further in my estimation, but, well, there it is.

**, lady!

Oh yeah:

Edit: the usual
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 10:35 PM   #136
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

The following is from Third World Traveler: I would agree that there is a lot of political propaganda in the US by those who make money ( a lot of money) off our current system and do not want a change. These people are doing it for pure greed they do not care about health care. I will not name them but I think you know who I mean. They only care about their bank account!

“Claims of excessive waiting lists are the "political theater" of publicly funded health care everywhere in the world. In fact, when asked, most Canadians on waiting lists do not find their waits problematic. Claims of under-funding play an obvious role in the bargaining process between providers and governments. The former cry, "More money for health!"; they mean higher incomes for themselves.
Obviously, health care also matters, and the Canadian health care system is very good at delivering care to the people who need it, whether or not they can pay. (this is the reason for lower infant mortality not race) Cross-border, comparative studies suggest that both the Canadian and American systems serve people in middle- and upper-income groups well, but that there are marked differences in access to care and outcomes for people with lower incomes. It would be very surprising if this were not so. About 40 million Americans have no insurance at all, and those who are covered increasingly face large user fees.

However, reviews of waits in Canada have found that the system provides immediate access for emergency cases and rapid access for urgent ones. Because there have been remarkable increases in the numbers of cataract, bypass, hip, and knee procedures performed in Canada in recent years, rationing of care is no longer a real issue.”
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 10:59 PM   #137
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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I think that happened several months ago, actually.

So in addition to her other "charms," MKLD is a racist dirtbag. I didn't think she could drop any further in my estimation, but, well, there it is.

**, lady!

Oh yeah:

Edit: the usual
Whatever...I have lots of friends of many different ethnicities. My points are based on fact. OK - so I used the word "Black" instead of "African American"...I apologize if that offends people.

People of certain socio-economic status are at greater risk for higher infant mortality rates. This would be true whether they lived in Canada or in the USA. Blacks happen to have higher rates than whites, and Hispanics have lower rates than whites. I didn't invent the numbers.

We can't use poverty as the sole reason for the problem. We also have to consider lifestyle choices such as smoking while pregnant, getting pregnant during adolecense, etc. If Canada had the same mix of races, and the very same cultural values as we have in the USA, it would be a foregone conclusion that the healthcare system is the reason why our infant mortality rates are higher, but the two countries have very different mixes of races and ethnicities, so people should stop trying to prove that our system is worse, just because our infant mortality rates are higher. If it were true that poverty and access to care for people who live in poverty was the main reason for the problem, then the numbers for Hispanics would then be much higher than whites, correct? But they are not, they are at or below the figures for white people


Some people on the board are saying that poverty is the reason, but we certainly have way lower poverty rates than many other countries, yet our numbers, overall, are higher. Hmmmm, why would that be? Maybe it has something to do with the cultural values and lifestyles held by different people of varying ethnicity?....

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 11:18 PM   #138
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

OK, let's get off the issue of the association between ethnicity and illness because the reasons for any association are complex social issues. Let's agree that illness costs us all. Sick infants are expensive in both the short and long term. Maternal health impacts the health of children. Often sick moms-to-be deliver sick babies.

When I was in grade school we had classes that included nutrition, meal preparation and infant care. We also had a PE teacher and a school nurse. This was right after WW II, the neighborhood included kids from the south whose parents worked in shipyards as well as displaced refugees from Europe. There was a public health focus because there were concerns about tuberculosis, small pox and STDs (for a start).

Let's get back to basics. I have seen both ends of the social-economic spectrum. Let me assure you that wealth and education by the adults is no assurance of a healthy lifestyle for the family.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 11:18 PM   #139
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
If you said "send all the poor people", I might actually agree with your point.
So are you saying that America has more poor people than Canada, and that's why our infant mortality numbers are higher? Our poorest Americans have access to Medicaid, so how can we say that it's an access to care issue for our poor people that leads to the discrepancy?

It's very frustrating to me that people always point to infant mortality as proof that our healthcare system is worse than in other countries. I don't think you can tie the two together.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-04-2007, 11:32 PM   #140
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
So are you saying that America has more poor people than Canada, and that's why our infant mortality numbers are higher? Our poorest Americans have access to Medicaid, so how can we say that it's an access to care issue for our poor people that leads to the discrepancy?

It's very frustrating to me that people always point to infant mortality as proof that our healthcare system is worse than in other countries. I don't think you can tie the two together.
Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!

Just to clear something up you keep saying Canada is a white mans paradise for your information almost 17% of Canadians are non-white. The US population is about 32% non-white. Canada is also facing a large influx of Chinese that will push that number up.
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