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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:40 AM   #141
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
. . .My points are based on fact. . . .
No. . . they aren't. You have used facts illogically. Your points are based on faulty reasoning. Correlation does not imply cause. You are wrong. :P
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 06:43 AM   #142
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Freein05
Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!
But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 08:27 AM   #143
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :
Medicaid and Medicare are different and states have a lot of imput into Medicaid. Medicaid is seriously underfunded, with lots of cuts in a number of states in recent years. The population on medicaid, the disabled poor and poor children, have no strong lobby.

Just because you are poor does not mean you are eligible for Medicaid.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 08:57 AM   #144
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Martha

Just because you are poor does not mean you are eligible for Medicaid.
in fact if you're over 18, you pretty much *aren't* eligible for medicaid, unless you are A: disabled, B: over 65, or C: make less than some absurdly small number (something like 7-800/month IIRC). The criteria are more generous if you're pregnant, but that ends 3 months after the baby's born.

And I don't trust my temper to make any other comments on this thread.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 09:22 AM   #145
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
No. . . they aren't. You have used facts illogically. Your points are based on faulty reasoning. Correlation does not imply cause. You are wrong. :P
Ding ding ding.

"I'm just speaking facts, even when someone has already demonstrated that the facts are probably not particularly factual and have no application in the case i'm trying to make".

Whatever that is.... :

I'll try again, even though (tap tap tap) I dont think this thing is on. My wifes dad is hispanic. Her mom is white. Her birth certificate says she's white. She is quite hispanic looking. Her parents were quite poor when she was young and had no health care. My son has a half hispanic mother and a mutt father. His birth certificate says he's white. He's growing up in a very affluent household with health care.

Now, how would you slice any of that data and/or find any correlation between the various races (which arent accurate) with the economic situations?

You cant.

All I know is that with the exception of people who have great health care paid for by someone else, nobody seems to think the health care situation is very good. Granted, injecting the government into any situation rarely solves as many problems as it causes, but there are some things that just dont work in the public sector.

I'm trying to imagine the army being run by the current network of health professionals, insurance companies, individuals and other assorted contributors. and...I...just....cant.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 09:26 AM   #146
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by OKLibrarian
in fact if you're over 18, you pretty much *aren't* eligible for medicaid, unless you are A: disabled, B: over 65, or C: make less than some absurdly small number (something like 7-800/month IIRC). The criteria are more generous if you're pregnant, but that ends 3 months after the baby's born.
This is somewhat state dependant. States don't have to provide any benefits to you if you are over 18 and not disabled, even if you have no money at all. EDIT to add: States divide low income people into three groups: children, parents of children, and non-parent adults. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, in 40 of 50 states non-parent adults are not eligible for Medicaid at all, even if they do not have a penny to their name, unless they are fully and completely disabled. The remaining 10 states provide some coverage but it is very limited.


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And I don't trust my temper to make any other comments on this thread.
Yes, I pretty much am keeping quiet myself.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:09 AM   #147
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freein05
Access to Medicaid is a great example of health care in the US. Try to get a doctor to accept Medicaid. Think about the boy in DC who died while waiting for Medicaid to approve the pulling of a tooth!

Just to clear something up you keep saying Canada is a white mans paradise for your information almost 17% of Canadians are non-white. The US population is about 32% non-white. Canada is also facing a large influx of Chinese that will push that number up.
Asian Americans have the lowest infant mortality rates. So...an influx of Asians should bring the numbers down further.

Let's look at the infant mortality numbers again:

White 5.8
Black 13.8
Hispanic 5.7
Indian 9
Asian/Pacific Islander 5.1

Looking at these numbers, it's hard to believe that poverty due to racial discrimination is the sole reason why infant mortality rates go up in the black population. If that were true, Hispanics and Asians would have higher numbers too.

Again - The point is that we can't simply make the coorelation between poverty (resulting in lack of access to care) and infant mortality rates. If that were true, we would have much higher numbers in the Hispanic population.

You have to take into consideration also, teen pregnancy rates, smoking drug and alcohol abuse while pregnant, level of education, etc. These other factors would probably be similar regardless of where the people live. That's why I am saying that if the USA had the same exact mix of races that Canada has, then our numbers would be similar to Canada, regardless of the type of health system we have.

You all are not getting the point. How can I be labeled a bigot, just because I believe that you can't compare Canada's and the USA's infant mortality rates until you either move more non-white Americans to Canada or move more White Canadians to the USA?

That's it. Period. The numbers are what they are. The numbers have to do with a wide variety of factors, including poverty, education, culture, teenage pregnancy rates, smoking drug and alcohol abuse, etc. You can't just blame poverty and the healthcare system on the difference.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:44 AM   #148
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
But I thought government health care was so great. Why wouldn't a doctor want to accept Medicaid? :
Your current president has cut funding for Medicaid to the point where it is a joke. It is nothing like Medicare. Medicaid is run by the states and how bad or how very bad it is depends on how much the state can or is willing to make up for the cut in funding our compassionate president has cut!
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:48 AM   #149
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs

Again - The point is that we can't simply make the coorelation between poverty (resulting in lack of access to care) and infant mortality rates. If that were true, we would have much higher numbers in the Hispanic population.
Yes you can.

I don't know where to start or where to stop, but I thought I should suggest that people look at the CDC if they want some figures on mortality and poverty.

For example, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the infant mortality rate for babies born to women living in households with incomes below the poverty line is 60% higher than for babies of nonpoor women. CDC concluded that poverty raises infant morality rates as much as smoking during pregnancy or inadequate prenatal care.


Also, study after study has established a correlation between low income and adult mortality.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8616393



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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:52 AM   #150
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Freein05
Your current president has cut funding for Medicaid to the point where it is a joke. It is nothing like Medicare. Medicaid is run by the states and how bad or how very bad it is depends on how much the state can or is willing to make up for the cut in funding our compassionate president has cut!
Cuts in funding always end up happening eventually in "socialized" systems of care. It was inevitable. It's the beginning of rationing. After the cuts happening, that's when we start ending up with shortages of care, etc...It would be the same, eventually, if we went national with the entire system.

First, you tax the people to death to pay for it. When you can't tax anymore, then you start cutting funding (cost control). When you can't do that anymore, you start ending up with shortages of care. That's the natural progression of a socialized system.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:53 AM   #151
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freein05
Your current president has cut funding for Medicaid to the point where it is a joke. It is nothing like Medicare. Medicaid is run by the states and how bad or how very bad it is depends on how much the state can or is willing to make up for the cut in funding our compassionate president has cut!
A good example is Mississippi. Infant mortality increased dramatically in the last three years, right after huge medicaid cuts.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 10:54 AM   #152
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Cuts in funding always end up happening eventually in "socialized" systems of care. It was inevitable. It's the beginning of rationing. After the cuts happening, that's when we start ending up with shortages of care, etc...It would be the same, eventually, if we went national with the entire system.

First, you tax the people to death to pay for it. When you can't tax anymore, then you start cutting funding (cost control). When you can't do that anymore, you start ending up with shortages of care. That's the natural progression of a socialized system.
Do not not see that we are already here in our "non socialist" system?

Ha
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 11:24 AM   #153
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Martha
For example, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the infant mortality rate for babies born to women living in households with incomes below the poverty line is 60% higher than for babies of nonpoor women. CDC concluded that poverty raises infant morality rates as much as smoking during pregnancy or inadequate prenatal care.
The CDC also said:

"One possible explanation for this is that mortality rates for infants born to high-risk women are already so high -- even among those living above poverty level -- that poverty has little additional effect."
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 11:26 AM   #154
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by HaHa
Do not not see that we are already here in our "non socialist" system?

Ha
Actually, the USA is already more than half socialized when you take into consideration that sligthly more than 1/2 or our spending comes from Medicare and Medicaid recipients.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 11:36 AM   #155
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Martha
Yes you can.

I don't know where to start or where to stop, but I thought I should suggest that people look at the CDC if they want some figures on mortality and poverty.

For example, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the infant mortality rate for babies born to women living in households with incomes below the poverty line is 60% higher than for babies of nonpoor women. CDC concluded that poverty raises infant morality rates as much as smoking during pregnancy or inadequate prenatal care.

Also, study after study has established a correlation between low income and adult mortality.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8616393
Than why are the mortality rates of the Hispanic population soooo much lower than in the Black population? You can't simply blame just poverty and access to care or the numbers between Blacks and Hispanics wouldn't be so significantly different. I think poverty is one factor, but obviously, it's not everything....and rates of poverty would probably be similar whether the other races lived in Canada or in the USA.

The problem that everyone has when they assume that lack of access to care is the only reason for our higher rates is that no one is taking into consideration that higher risk groups of people (such as people of certain races, people who smoke, drink, take drugs or have teen pregnancies) may be skewing our numbers above Canada's too.

The CDC said:

"planning efforts for maternal and child health programs should include consideration of low income, in addition to other social and behavioral characteristics, such as adolescent childbearing, cigarette smoking during pregnancy, access to prenatal care, low maternal educational attainment, and race/ethnicity."

IMO, The "other social and behavioral characteristics" would be a constant, regardless of where the poeple live. That's why we can't just blame our health care system for the higher statistic here than in Canada.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 11:55 AM   #156
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

MKLD quote was a bit out of context. In full:


The findings in this analysis of NMIHS indicate that, for infants born to women living in poverty in the United States in 1988, overall excess mortality risk was approximately 60% compared with infants born to women living above the poverty level. Although higher proportions of women living below poverty level than above were in high-risk groups (i.e., unmarried, adolescent, smokers, black, or had had late or no prenatal care), the higher risk for death among infants born to women living below the poverty level was not associated with these maternal characteristics. Instead, the effect of poverty was stronger for infants born to women who were otherwise at low absolute risk for infant mortality (i.e., women who were married, aged greater than or equal to 18 years, nonsmokers, white, had had early prenatal care, or with greater than or equal to 12 years of education). One possible explanation for this is that mortality rates for infants born to high-risk women are already so high -- even among those living above poverty level -- that poverty has little additional effect.


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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:12 PM   #157
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

So according to MKLD infant mortality is not a good guage of the health care system, and life expectancy is also not a good guage of the health care system...

I guess MKLD's only guage of a successful healthcare system is the ability of insurance company exec's to make millions by denying claims of sick folks and whore/brokers skimming a few cents off of every health care dollar...now THAT's a good metric for a healthcare system....
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:15 PM   #158
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Reason something like that hasn't been implemented yet? To answer Nords...is because too many people don't like the idea of "unfairness".
Gosh, I sure am glad we have someone like you around, MKLD. You can explain anything in terms of your understanding of what people like or don't like, instead of whether something is actually feasible. It certainly avoids messy debates that would actually have to be based in anything concrete like facts.

But speaking of "facts", you also seem to be an expert on correlation & causality. Did you happen to be paying attention to SG when he said that race & infant mortality aren't necessarily connected? Is your "fact" any more useful than the fact that S&P500 market returns are closely correlated to Bangladesh butter production? Ah, but stock-market analysts probably don't "like" something as unfair as having to manage butter production.

Actually your set of facts is much more subject to abuse than even Bangladesh. Because it's an important point that race has nothing to do with whether your kid lives or dies, but unfortunately many are tempted to wrap racist "facts" like that around a cost-cutting or otherwise racially-profiled policy that can make problems worse-- not better. People are tempted to do something about race instead of about data quality or pre-natal care or neonatal intensive care or anything else that might actually have a causality with an infant's chance of survival.

I'd like to think that blissfully-ignorant bigotry is a vanishing artifact of the 20th century. But I see it in relatives (whom I used to respect) as much as I see it in strangers, so I guess the fact that someone is bigoted has little or nothing to do with their accomplishments. Or their race. Or their occupation. Or their membership on this board.

But I don't have to tolerate it. It's been interesting talking to you, and you have a nice life now.

Andy, how's that "Ignore" feature coming?
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:34 PM   #159
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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I guess MKLD's only guage of a successful healthcare system is the ability of insurance company exec's to make millions by denying claims of sick folks and whore/brokers skimming a few cents off of every health care dollar...
Naughty Naughty!

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:34 PM   #160
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Again, I don't understand how someone can be a bigot just because they think that race/ethnicity and behaviors such as smoking, drinking, lack of education and getting pregnant during the teen years might have more to do with the difference in the infant mortality numbers than just the healthcare system alone.

Based on the numbers given earlier, this is a logical conclusion to draw. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like or dislike people of any particular race. In fact, I have quite a few black and hispanic friends. The information I am providing is simply evidence that you can't simply just blame our healthcare system for the difference in the numbers. You've got to look at other factors. Blaming the healthcare system alone is too simplistic of a conclusion to draw.

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