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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:39 PM   #161
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
In fact, I have quite a few black and hispanic friends.
Uh oh.

:
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 12:44 PM   #162
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by eridanus
Uh oh.

:
Y'all need to get over your sensitivity. I'm just presenting facts that point to a possibility that the healthcare system alone may not be the only reason for the difference in infant mortality rates.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 01:13 PM   #163
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Y'all need to get over your sensitivity. I'm just presenting facts that point to a possibility that the healthcare system alone may not be the only reason for the difference in infant mortality rates.
No. You are not. I don't question the data (at least my questions of the data are not the important point here). In order to reach your conclusions, you have to assume that the statistical observation is causal (ie that being of a particular race is the underlying cause for the infant mortality observation). Without proving causality, your argument is not logical. You are simply wrong. And since this is so obvious to everyone but you, I believe I am done here. You are either too stupid or too stubborn to understand. :P
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 01:26 PM   #164
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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No. You are not. I don't question the data (at least my questions of the data are not the important point here). In order to reach your conclusions, you have to assume that the statistical observation is causal (ie that being of a particular race is the underlying cause for the infant mortality observation). Without proving causality, your argument is not logical. You are simply wrong. And since this is so obvious to everyone but you, I believe I am done here. You are either too stupid or too stubborn to understand. :P
As you are wrong to assume that the healthcare system is the only cause.

In earlier arguments I pointed out that Blacks have very high rates, while Hispanics have quite low rates. If race has absolutely nothing to do with the huge difference in infant mortality rates between the black and hispanic races, then what might some of the other reasons be? Blacks and Hispanics are similarly discriminated against, have similar rates of poverty and similar problems accessing the healthcare system, so why are the rates for Black people so high and the rates for Hispanics so low?

Are you saying that there is absolutely no possibility that race (or that the behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels of particualr races) might be a factor?
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 01:34 PM   #165
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Are you saying that there is absolutely no possibility that race (or that the behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels of particualr races) might be a factor?
Are you a recent arrival from Mars? Don't you recognize blasphemy when you write it?

HA
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 01:39 PM   #166
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by HaHa
Are you a recent arrival from Mars? Don't you recognize blasphemy when you write it?

HA
I guess not. Maybe you could elaborate. I'm just pointing out my observations based on data that I have looked into. If you take offense to my observations, there's not much I can do about that.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 02:52 PM   #167
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Martha
This is somewhat state dependant. States don't have to provide any benefits to you if you are over 18 and not disabled, even if you have no money at all. EDIT to add: States divide low income people into three groups: children, parents of children, and non-parent adults. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, in 40 of 50 states non-parent adults are not eligible for Medicaid at all, even if they do not have a penny to their name, unless they are fully and completely disabled. The remaining 10 states provide some coverage but it is very limited.
Valid point. Those are just the rules i knew in my state when i was still doing the caseworker thing (about 3 years ago now--man time flies!). However it sounds like they're fairly representative or even slightly more generous than the average. My general point stands.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 03:48 PM   #168
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Are you saying that there is absolutely no possibility that race (or that the behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels of particualr races) might be a factor?
No, I think people are generally just a tad irritated thet you seem to believe that the healthcare system is hunky-dory and that any and all problems are due to the stupidity/laziness/behaviors of old people/doctors/cancer patients/people with a skin tone darker than copy paper.

** [usual edit], lady!
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 03:51 PM   #169
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
As you are wrong to assume that the healthcare system is the only cause.

In earlier arguments I pointed out that Blacks have very high rates, while Hispanics have quite low rates. If race has absolutely nothing to do with the huge difference in infant mortality rates between the black and hispanic races, then what might some of the other reasons be? Blacks and Hispanics are similarly discriminated against, have similar rates of poverty and similar problems accessing the healthcare system, so why are the rates for Black people so high and the rates for Hispanics so low?

Are you saying that there is absolutely no possibility that race (or that the behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels of particualr races) might be a factor?
MKs, many of us here feel like we are butting our heads against the wall. There are many interesting correlations regarding mortality, both infant and adult, as well as poor health, with socioeconomic status, such as wealth, education, what job you have, as well as race, what state you are from, and many other factors, all jumbled up together and nearly impossible to sort through. But as people here have said over and over again, correlation is not cause and effect. For example, children of smokers are more likely to have asthma than children of non-smokers. Poor people are in fact more likely to smoke than wealthy people. Is childhood asthma the result of the smoking or something else having to do with being poor? Heck, maybe it is mold in the home. Or what they eat. Or all of the above. Or none of the above.

Another example. People without a high school education are less healthy than the more educated. Is it because they have no motivation to improve or take care of themselves? Is it because they have less money so they don't eat well and don't go to the doctor when they should? Or is it because people with health problems are less likely to finish school? Hey, I bet there is a correlation between poor mental health and completion of high school. You do have to be very careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

It would be nice to know why certain groups have more health problems or why certain groups are healthier. That would be helpful in figuring out how to address the problems. But we can't get that far here and the reasons for disparities among groups are complex.

What is problematic about your posts is that you are not carefull about cause and effect and you jump to conclusions that are offensive. You say: "If we moved all of the blacks and hispanics from the USA to Canada, Canada's infant mortality rates would be higher" assuming that being black alone will automatically result in a higher mortality rate without considering that maybe it is a much larger systematic problem. You leave broad hints that it is the fault of black people that they have poor health, after all they have certain "behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels."

Brewer has a point.

Think before you type.

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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:08 PM   #170
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Oh, what the heck. I'll give it one more try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
As you are wrong to assume that the healthcare system is the only cause.
The problem with this statement is that I have never assumed any such thing. Nothing I have said depends on any such thing. This is the third time (in this thread alone) that you have refuted an argument I never made and that is irrelevant to the discussion. You seem to be a very confused thinker who can't focus on logical developments. I don't know how to help you other than to encourage you to read more carefully and ask questions if you become confused.

Quote:
In earlier arguments I pointed out that Blacks have very high rates, while Hispanics have quite low rates. If race has absolutely nothing to do with the huge difference in infant mortality rates between the black and hispanic races, then what might some of the other reasons be?
Ahhhh. . . that is the point so many have tried to make already. Go back and re-read the other posts carefully. Several posters cite several other contributing factors that may cause the numbers to occur as they do.

But you should know that it doesn't matter whether the factors that they mention contribute to the final result or not. Even if every factor they mention turns out to have no impact at all, your argument is still invalid. You are still wrong. The only way to get to your conclusion logically is to prove that race causes infant mortality. Without that proof, an infinite number of explanations might be offered to explain the statistical observation you speak of.

Quote:
Blacks and Hispanics are similarly discriminated against, have similar rates of poverty and similar problems accessing the healthcare system, so why are the rates for Black people so high and the rates for Hispanics so low?
See above. But why do you think that's true? Do you think skin color causes infants to die? I can't imagine what your explanation is and would love to hear it.

Quote:
Are you saying that there is absolutely no possibility that race (or that the behaviors, cultural values attitudes, and education levels of particualr races) might be a factor?
No. I am simply saying that you have not presented a logical argument. You are wrong. And you are either too stupid or too stubborn to see what everyone is telling you. . .

So which is it? ? ? Too stupid? or too stubborn?
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:14 PM   #171
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Valid point. Those are just the rules i knew in my state when i was still doing the caseworker thing (about 3 years ago now--man time flies!). However it sounds like they're fairly representative or even slightly more generous than the average. My general point stands.
Sorry, I came off sounding kind of picky--your points were important. I brought up variability in eligibility just to show it is even more restrictive than your experience in many places. I would have left the social work field too; the rules and restrictions would have disabled me.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:24 PM   #172
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
** [usual edit], lady!
I must publicly complain to the moderator. This unacceptable on a forum, period. Other people seem to be able debate this issue without lowering to cursing at people. Inserting [usual edit] is unacceptable. If it such a common problem with this poster, then maybe a temporary suspension from the forum is needed. I know brewer is a valued poster and I have learned a lot in the finance section, but if he can't conduct himself as an adult maybe something more needs to happen.. IIRC this is the third time he used inppropriate language in this thread.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:25 PM   #173
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Dowling, Mike, "Mr. Dowling's Interactive Table of the Nations of the World," available from http://www.mrdowling.com/800nations.html; Internet; updated Thursday, June 29, 2006 . 2007, Mike Dowling. All rights reserved.

http://www.mrdowling.com/800life.html

United States Life Expectancy: 77.85 years
Canada Life Expectancy: 80.22 years

United States Infant Mortality: 6.4
Canada Infant Mortality: 4.7

Note the date of last update is June 2006.
Sgeeee, was that not a post you made earlier? What conclusion was I supposed to draw from that? The post makes it seem that you are trying to prove that life expectancy rates and infant mortality rates have a cause and effect relationship with healthcare systems based on the stats presented.

I said...
Blacks and Hispanics are similarly discriminated against, have similar rates of poverty and similar problems accessing the healthcare system, so why are the rates for Black people so high and the rates for Hispanics so low?


And you said: See above. But why do you think that's true? Do you think skin color causes infants to die? I can't imagine what your explanation is and would love to hear it.


My answer is: I doubt "skin color" causes a race to have higher infant mortality rates. However, when you have a rate like 13.8/1000 for Blacks and 5.8/1000 for Hispanics, it kind of makes you wonder why Blacks have such a statistically significant higher number of deaths per thousand than Hispanics. Especially since both groups face many of the same socio-economic problems. Therefore, the conclusion is that the race (not skin color) may have something to do with it. I don't know if it is cultural differences or what, but the fact remains that no matter where they lived, whether in Canada or the USA, they'd probably have similar infant mortality rates.


Martha - You are right and I will try to be more careful about the way I say things. I tried to correct myself regarding the Hispanic figures, but after my first comment, no one could see the point I was trying to make. ....that you can't just assume that it is the healthcare system alone that leads to the difference in infant mortality rates between Canada and the USA. That's the main and only point I was trying to make in all of this. You have to consider other socio-economic factors that would remain constant whether the high-risk groups lived in Canada or not.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:31 PM   #174
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Hundreds of appends later, no concensus, guess this is exactly what
happens in congress

Next I suggest we take up gun control and abortion

TJ
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:35 PM   #175
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Hundreds of appends later, no concensus, guess this is exactly what
happens in congress

Next I suggest we take up gun control and abortion

TJ
Actually, there is a very clear consensus. One stubborn and/or stupid nut job doesn't imply a lack of consensus. It implies one stubborn and/or stupid nut job.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 04:51 PM   #176
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

I have this nearly irresistible urge to lock this thread.

Must . . not. . . touch. . .
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 05:58 PM   #177
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

Discretion struck.

Ha
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 06:50 PM   #178
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by Martha
Sorry, I came off sounding kind of picky--your points were important. I brought up variability in eligibility just to show it is even more restrictive than your experience in many places. I would have left the social work field too; the rules and restrictions would have disabled me.
no offense taken--probably should have tossed a smiley in there. I mainly took the job because the local economy crashed in 2002 and it was the easiest way to get a steady paycheck, do something that actually helped my fellow man, and figure out what i wanted to be when i grew up. And you've encapsulated exactly why i left the field--I was powerless to do anything other than enforce policies that I found alternately idiotic and harmful. And daily exposure to black, white, hispanic, asian, etc. people who were mired in generational poverty and/or were actively destroying themselves was turning me into a person I didn't particularly like. I did it for as long as i could, did it as well as I could--and then I finished grad school and went to my current job. No regrets for going to work there, and even less for leaving.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-05-2007, 07:05 PM   #179
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

What I don't get is the fact that many do not realize that the poor health of some costs all of us big bucks over the long term. Health care that is preventative in nature is a bargain, which is why I think that we should start with prenatal and child health care. Kids can't choose their parents.

The other focus should be on infectious diseases. One vector can cost us all a lot.
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????
Old 05-06-2007, 08:09 AM   #180
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Re: Is Univeral Health Care the answer?????

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I must publicly complain to the moderator. This unacceptable on a forum, period. Other people seem to be able debate this issue without lowering to cursing at people. Inserting [usual edit] is unacceptable. If it such a common problem with this poster, then maybe a temporary suspension from the forum is needed. I know brewer is a valued poster and I have learned a lot in the finance section, but if he can't conduct himself as an adult maybe something more needs to happen.. IIRC this is the third time he used inppropriate language in this thread.
Hey, you got a problem, PM me. "Conduct yourself like an adult" and all that.

Sorry, but I find MKLD's nonsense far more offensive than even the most creative string of expletives I could possibly manage. Be happy I limited myself to two letters.
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