Just found out I'm Type II

[dixonge]

So, unless I missed it, no one is curious about actually reversing Type II? Strange...

 

[Jerry1]

DW has also been eating that way, and while her FBG was always OK, she's also lost nearly 15 lbs.

+1

I do not have diabetes but I have been labeled pre-diabetic. I've changed my diet significantly but the most helpful thing for me was that my DW went along for the ride even though she did not need to. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to have her eating all the things I cannot. One of the biggest things that helps with diet is not bringing the things you're not supposed to eat into the house. So, here's to the significant other who is more helpful than you could know!

 

[audreyh1]

So, unless I missed it, no one is curious about actually reversing Type II? Strange...

I'm very curious. FBG is 92, so I'm do not need to reverse anything yet, but I'm still curious.

 

[euro]

While there can be variability as you suggest, I suspect the A1C test is a good indicator of average blood sugar for the majority, no?

Yes, I agree - for a lot of people it is a good test. We just have to understand that for some folks, it may not be. Fasting glucose, postprandial glucose (Glucose spikes), and A1C should all be consistent

 

[euro]

So, unless I missed it, no one is curious about actually reversing Type II? Strange...

Not sure I understand your comment. I think it is important to try to reverse T2D and the only way I know of that can, in principle, accomplish it for most people is to carefully watch carbohydrate consumption. Once T2D is firmly established diet alone may not be enough anymore and medications may be needed, but diet is an important component in any case.

 

[dixonge]

Not sure I understand your comment. I think it is important to try to reverse T2D and the only way I know of that can, in principle, accomplish it for most people is to carefully watch carbohydrate consumption. Once T2D is firmly established diet alone may not be enough anymore and medications may be needed, but diet is an important component in any case.

I was referring to my previous post where I linked to the University of Newcastle (UK) and their research on this. Approximately 70% of those who reduced calories to 800/day for 8 weeks saw their blood sugar normalize. Permanently. My wife tried this dietary fix after her A1C tested at over 10. Her blood tests are all normal now, morning fasting glucose, post-prandial glucose and A1C. She is off Metformin.

 

[euro]

I was referring to my previous post where I linked to the University of Newcastle (UK) and their research on this. Approximately 70% of those who reduced calories to 800/day for 8 weeks saw their blood sugar normalize. Permanently. My wife tried this dietary fix after her A1C tested at over 10. Her blood tests are all normal now, morning fasting glucose, post-prandial glucose and A1C. She is off Metformin.

Oh, I see - sorry. Yes, I'm not surprised that keeping to 800 calories will help as that means along with everything else, carbohydrate consumption almost certainly decreased as well.

PS: congrats to Mrs Dixonge ! That sounds like an ideal outcome!

 

[harley]

I was referring to my previous post where I linked to the University of Newcastle (UK) and their research on this. Approximately 70% of those who reduced calories to 800/day for 8 weeks saw their blood sugar normalize. Permanently.

I read most of it (there are dozens of links in the article), and that's not what it says. It says basically that if you have the standard type of Type II diabetes and lose weight and keep it off, you have a good chance of reversing the diabetes. Which is good news, and probably true. But if you do their experiment of 800 calories/day and lose enough weight to reverse your Type II, but don't maintain the weight loss (as most probably won't), the diabetes could return. It also says that slower and more maintainable weight loss would also work, and that if you've had diabetes for 10+ years you might never get all the way back to normal. It's all good information, much of which is sort of standard knowledge in the non-mainstream diabetes world. But it's not a miracle cure. It's just another way that people might reverse their diabetes. Doing the fasting protocols Jason Fung has researched also works along the same lines, with allowing your insulin levels to fall which allows glycogen build up. As I said, good information, and more proof that for many Type II is a self inflicted condition. But it takes a lot of work and willpower to reverse it, no matter which method you choose.


Here's the most condensed explanation I found while reading through all the articles. http://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclac...re/files/reversing-type2-diabetes-leaflet.pdf

 

[dixonge]

I read most of it (there are dozens of links in the article), and that's not what it says. It says basically that if you have the standard type of Type II diabetes and lose weight and keep it off, you have a good chance of reversing the diabetes.

Well, to be fair, the title of their main page on the topic is "Reversing Type 2 Diabetes." It is 'permanent' unless you regain all your weight, obviously.

It's all good information, much of which is sort of standard knowledge in the non-mainstream diabetes world. But it's not a miracle cure. It's just another way that people might reverse their diabetes.

I'm curious where you can find this 'non-mainstream diabetes world' where this is standard knowledge. I've yet to see such. I would love to interact!

But it takes a lot of work and willpower to reverse it, no matter which method you choose.

My wife did the 8-week protocol while we were living in Chiapas, Mexico. She used a low-calorie GNC protein shake and vegetables for her calories. To her it wasn't work and didn't require willpower, per se. It just required the knowledge that maybe she didn't have to look forward to a future of medication and eventual insulin dependency and constant blood sugar monitoring. That was motivation enough.

 

[dixonge]

Oh, I see - sorry. Yes, I'm not surprised that keeping to 800 calories will help as that means along with everything else, carbohydrate consumption almost certainly decreased as well.

PS: congrats to Mrs Dixonge ! That sounds like an ideal outcome!

I don't recall the exact composition of her diet for the 8 weeks as far as protein/fat/carbohydrate goes. Mostly low fat though. However, as soon as she finished she proceeded to test her fasting and post-prandial recovery using burgers and pancakes and desserts and alcohol. All results were amazingly normal. Still are...

 

[harley]

I'm curious where you can find this 'non-mainstream diabetes world' where this is standard knowledge. I've yet to see such. I would love to interact!

It's everywhere. Jenny Ruhl's site, Malcolm Kendrick's blog, Dr. Mark Hyman's blog, the University of Newcastle info that you linked to, Butter Bob, pretty much anywhere that contradicts the mainstream AMA/ADA advice of low fat/plenty of whole grains, exercise more, and take meds for the rest of your life. There's tons of alternate, well researched discussion about Type II. Some is real research done by respected (until they spoke out against dogma) physicians and scientists, others are personal observations and different readings of published studies. A lot of it (like Dr. Kendrick and Dr. Fung) is based off their research into why so many diabetics come down with whatever their specialties (CVD, Renal failure, weight loss, etc.) are. You'd almost have to be not looking to not find it.

The knowledge that these people are presenting is becoming so well accepted amongst diebetics that maybe you think it isn't alternative anymore. But until the AMA, ADA, AHA, and other organizations change the recommendations that they are giving to people who blindly follow doctors orders, and until the doctors are willing to recommend non-dogma procedures, I still consider it non-mainstream.

 

[audreyh1]

I was referring to my previous post where I linked to the University of Newcastle (UK) and their research on this. Approximately 70% of those who reduced calories to 800/day for 8 weeks saw their blood sugar normalize. Permanently. My wife tried this dietary fix after her A1C tested at over 10. Her blood tests are all normal now, morning fasting glucose, post-prandial glucose and A1C. She is off Metformin.

Wow!

Is this very low calorie diet done under supervision?

 

[EastWest Gal]

Steven Phinney and Jeff Volek are exercise physiologists, not diabeticians. There is better advice available. OTOH, you should consult them for improving your sports performance.

Stephen Phinney is in the board of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and was the director of multi-disciplinary weight management programs at UC Davis. He is knowledgeable in the areas of nutrition, metabolism, metabolic syndrome, and fatty acid oxidation. He is retired from clinical practice. The information in his books provide a thorough explanation of fatty acid, carbohydrate, and protein metabolism. Jeff Volek's bio at U Conn states his primary interest is improving metabolic syndrome and other cardiovascular risk factors and his secondary interest is in research on nutrition and athletic performance.

Since metabolic syndrome is often a precursor to diabetes, I think they know more about nutrition than you or I and most diabeticians. My experience with dealing with diabetologists (usually endocrinologists) is that they leave all the nutritional counseling to dietitians and nutritionists, and only deal with insulin and medication adjustments.

What I like about the low carb approach is 1. It makes sense biochemically, 2. The weight loss is more rapid, which is motivating, and 3. It is more sustainable as one does not experience much hunger or cravings. With low carbs and moderate protein, one must eat more fat, which is downright fun, but challenging to do it the most healthy way I can.

Obesity and diabetes run in my family. The low carb approach is not mainstream and is not perfect, but for some it might put T2 diabetes in remission, which cannot be said for the standard American diet. I hope to prevent diabetes in myself by doing this.

 

[harley]

Stephen Phinney is in the board of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and was the director of multi-disciplinary weight management programs at UC Davis. He is knowledgeable in the areas of nutrition, metabolism, metabolic syndrome, and fatty acid oxidation. He is retired from clinical practice. The information in his books provide a thorough explanation of fatty acid, carbohydrate, and protein metabolism. Jeff Volek's bio at U Conn states his primary interest is improving metabolic syndrome and other cardiovascular risk factors and his secondary interest is in research on nutrition and athletic performance.

Since metabolic syndrome is often a precursor to diabetes, I think they know more about nutrition than you or I and most diabeticians. My experience with dealing with diabetologists (usually endocrinologists) is that they leave all the nutritional counseling to dietitians and nutritionists, and only deal with insulin and medication adjustments.

That's been my experience, too. Neither GPs nor Endos seem to have much training in nutrition. And the Nutritionists in Kaiser Permanente (my HMO until recently) all repeat the mainstream information - low fat, whole grains, stay away from red meat, lose weight and get some exercise. The one doctor in KP that dared give me other information had to do it on the down low so as to not get in trouble. He's the one who turned me on to Mark Hyman and Jason Fung. And he was a Dermatologist of all things.

With low carbs and moderate protein, one must eat more fat, which is downright fun, but challenging to do it the most healthy way I can.

In "Eat Fat, Get Thin", Dr. Hyman recommends coconut oil as one of the best ones. I use it to cook a lot of things, including sautéed vegetables. And I've discovered it tastes so good I can lick the spoon. Ghee is another spoon licker, and a great oil for grilling. As you say, eating fat is fun. I've been loving all the cheeses too, although I've had to learn to eat them without crackers.

 

[euro]

That's been my experience, too. Neither GPs nor Endos seem to have much training in nutrition. And the Nutritionists in Kaiser Permanente (my HMO until recently) all repeat the mainstream information - low fat, whole grains, stay away from red meat, lose weight and get some exercise. The one doctor in KP that dared give me other information had to do it on the down low so as to not get in trouble. He's the one who turned me on to Mark Hyman and Jason Fung. And he was a Dermatologist of all things.

In "Eat Fat, Get Thin", Dr. Hyman recommends coconut oil as one of the best ones. I use it to cook a lot of things, including sautéed vegetables. And I've discovered it tastes so good I can lick the spoon. Ghee is another spoon licker, and a great oil for grilling. As you say, eating fat is fun. I've been loving all the cheeses too, although I've had to learn to eat them without crackers.

+1 on that!

 

[braumeister]

What I like about the low carb approach is 1. It makes sense biochemically, 2. The weight loss is more rapid, which is motivating, and 3. It is more sustainable as one does not experience much hunger or cravings. With low carbs and moderate protein, one must eat more fat, which is downright fun, but challenging to do it the most healthy way I can.

I was first put onto this track by Gary Taubes' book Why We Get Fat and have followed all the rest of the nontraditional crowd since. As you pointed out, it just makes so much sense.

But the kicker was the other (seemingly unrelated) problems that disappeared when we started the LCHF diet lifestyle: no more snoring (big surprise), GERD, feeling hungry two hours after eating, or cravings. It's almost miraculous, and DW and I have been enjoying it for about six years now.

Incidentally, I've found that the Costco coconut oil seems to have the best flavor. I just grab a spoonful from the jar now and then.

 

[euro]

I was first put onto this track by Gary Taubes' book Why We Get Fat and have followed all the rest of the nontraditional crowd since. As you pointed out, it just makes so much sense.

But the kicker was the other (seemingly unrelated) problems that disappeared when we started the LCHF diet lifestyle: no more snoring (big surprise), GERD, feeling hungry two hours after eating, or cravings. It's almost miraculous, and DW and I have been enjoying it for about six years now.

Incidentally, I've found that the Costco coconut oil seems to have the best flavor. I just grab a spoonful from the jar now and then.

Much the same experience here!
Incidentally, Taube's new book is definitely worth a read too

 

[eytonxav]

I can remember Taubes books initially being lauded on this forum and then it seemed like a bunch of naysayers popped up. As for me, I think his ideas make sense.

 

[haha]

That's been my experience, too. Neither GPs nor Endos seem to have much training in nutrition. And the Nutritionists in Kaiser Permanente (my HMO until recently) all repeat the mainstream information - low fat, whole grains, stay away from red meat, lose weight and get some exercise.

All that can be hoped from this standard advice is that one's path to death will not be really painful or fast. Lose vision, lose limbs, lose kidney function, hey what does a diabetic expect anyway?

These SOP docs will never be challenged from losing one more diabetic, as long as it happens in medically approved ways. However, they can be in trouble fast if they stray off the reservation. Like the ortho in Australia who tired of cutting off diabetic's legs, and advised a low carb protocol to his patients. He was told to desist, and amazingly one of the sins cited in charges against him was "inappropriately reversing diabetes".

Well we shan't have that shall we? Much better to appropriately watch the diabetic patient decline steadily, but at least appropriately.

Ha

 

[Fedup]

So, unless I missed it, no one is curious about actually reversing Type II? Strange...

My BIL was able to reverse type II diabetes. He was told to eat more protein like turkey. He was a vegetarian before, but food must taste boring, he loaded them up with sauce and ate a lot of cake/carb type. That's how he did it.

 

[braumeister]

My BIL was able to reverse type II diabetes. He was told to eat more protein like turkey. He was a vegetarian before, but food must taste boring, he loaded them up with sauce and ate a lot of cake/carb type. That's how he did it.

That sounds absolutely impossible.
If you don't mind, it would be marvelous if you could ask him for details.

 

[Fedup]

That sounds absolutely impossible.
If you don't mind, it would be marvelous if you could ask him for details.

He is in UK, his wife at the time, my husband's sister, divorced him because of the disease led to sexual problem. He did take medicine for a while. But now I've heard he has reversed it and remarried. But knowing him, I can see that. Vegetarian does always mean vegetarian eats healthy diet. He ate mostly roasted potatoes with lots of catch up. High glycemic index and sugar. Then he eats lots of cake, dessert to make up for it, more sugar. Now he is more careful with what he can eat, like no really ripe banana and eat more protein. I also think it maybe that he just started with the problem, I think if he had it for a long time it might not be possible. That's all I have because I only see his daughter and not him.

 

[harley]

That sounds absolutely impossible.
If you don't mind, it would be marvelous if you could ask him for details.

I've got a number of friends that are vegetarians, as well as celiacs disease sufferers. You can go gluten free without going low carb quite easily. When DW went GF for awhile, she was eating all these Namaste brand cakes and breads and such. They were delicious, sometimes better than the wheat flour versions. But man were they sweet! I especially liked the brownies and the carrot/spice cake mix. You can easily eat vegetarian without avoiding sugar/carbs. As a matter of fact, when I started my current eating style I googled a bunch of vegetarian dishes, and they all had too many carbs for me to be able to eat them. So I could see a vegetarian cutting back on certain things and eating a little meat, and getting their numbers to improve.

 

[braumeister]

Apparently I misunderstood. I thought Fedup was saying her BIL was eating a lot of cake to reverse it.

 

[Fedup]

I make a lot of cake without flour, even gluten free is still a lot of carb. Also because it's homemade, I can reduce the sugar amount. Adding dried coconut is good too. But there is a lot of dessert that I can make without flour. Cheese cake, coconut macaroons, crime brûlée. Too many really. Or just plain dark chocolate and nuts. We eat lots of nuts.