Lack of sleep and diseases (Alzheimers, cancer, heart attacks, etc)

[Amethyst]

A good chunk of my career, at different times (including the job just prior to retirement) was spent working rotating shifts in various watch centers. Even though I was pretty good at sleeping during different times of the day, it's a fact that working three different sets of hours, one after another, does horrible things to you. It took almost a year, each time, to feel like myself again. I remember coming home after a set of mid shifts, and having to pull over by the side of the road to take a nap. I was on the verge of falling asleep at the wheel.

[Amethyst]

I think it's contagious. My Uncle died of Alzheimer's, and then my Aunt got it, probably from taking care of him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptTom Because they died from other things, first? Maybe they fell off? Seriously though, interesting correlation. Doesn't help me, here at sea level. Then again, with all the things suggested to cause Alzheimer's nowadays, it's probably easier to just assume I'm going to get it.

[imoldernu]

Not starting a new thread, but because of my personal interest in Alzheimer's, and of poor sleep as a contributing factor, this article Jan 9 2018... posed a disturbing situation whereby one of the world's largest drug manufacturers has made the decision to stop research on drugs associated with AD. In particular, the article notes that no meaningful progress has been made in containment or cure for the disease in the past 15 years.

We have become accustomed to seeing medical breakthroughs on most diseases, and the hope is that with continued emphasis on study and analysis, solutions will be found. Could it be that Pfizer and perhaps other manufacturers have decided that further studies would not be productive or profitable? If so, could the predictions for the neartime (thirty year) growth and cost projections be valid?

"One of World's Biggest Drug Companies Just Abandoned Alzheimer's And Parkinson's Research"

Worth a look.

https://www.sciencealert.com/one-wor...s&limitstart=1

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by imoldernu Not starting a new thread, but because of my personal interest in Alzheimer's, and of poor sleep as a contributing factor, this article Jan 9 2018... posed a disturbing situation whereby one of the world's largest drug manufacturers has made the decision to stop research on drugs associated with AD. In particular, the article notes that no meaningful progress has been made in containment or cure for the disease in the past 15 years. We have become accustomed to seeing medical breakthroughs on most diseases, and the hope is that with continued emphasis on study and analysis, solutions will be found. Could it be that Pfizer and perhaps other manufacturers have decided that further studies would not be productive or profitable? If so, could the predictions for the neartime (thirty year) growth and cost projections be valid? "One of World's Biggest Drug Companies Just Abandoned Alzheimer's And Parkinson's Research" Worth a look. https://www.sciencealert.com/one-wor...s&limitstart=1

When I read the announcement my reaction was different. Pfizer may just be focusing it's research elsewhere and limiting the total R&D budget to maintain it's high levels of profit and cash generation. Another likely possibility is they are acknowledging they have no competitive edge in this area.

There's no indication the industry as a whole has given up.

[braumeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWras I was subjected (against my will) to an attempt to stay up for over 3 days (72 hours). That experience left me profoundly jealous of any and all sleep time. ... By the way, at 72 hours or so, you will experience hallucinations and all sorts of odd things your body does to trick you into sleeping.

When I was a teenager, a DJ at one of the local radio stations did some kind of promotion where he tried to stay awake for an entire week.

As I recall, he started getting kind of whacky as he approached 100 hours, and shortly after reaching that point they had to call it off. Nobody was surprised.

[tmm99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister When I was a teenager, a DJ at one of the local radio stations did some kind of promotion where he tried to stay awake for an entire week. As I recall, he started getting kind of whacky as he approached 100 hours, and shortly after reaching that point they had to call it off. Nobody was surprised.

The story you mentioned was actually in my college Psychology textbook. Yep, he went wacky; hallucinations, paranoia, and the whole bit. He appeared to develop some kind of psychosis, at least symptom-wise. It's so weird I still remember the story, but I was fascinated by it. He went into REM stage sleep while awake with his eyes open.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWras I was subjected (against my will) to an attempt to stay up for over 3 days (72 hours). That experience left me profoundly jealous of any and all sleep time. Megacorp these days has an expectation to work late night so as to attend meetings on the other side of the world. I told them I could not for health reasons. Seemed to shut them up for now. Yeah, played the HIPA card. By the way, at 72 hours or so, you will experience hallucinations and all sorts of odd things your body does to trick you into sleeping. I've never taken LSD, but I sure don't want to start now after those one and only hallucinations I had at that time. They were not fun.

I thought I replied to this post but must have lost time.

I never had the pleasure of a 72 hour day but did many 24-48 hour stints. For me there's a pattern of diminishing lucidity followed by an every increasing amount of insanity. I recall an early experience of my "normal acting manager" saying we should consider throwing a guy out the 11th story window! This was late in a 36 hour shift, she'd been there longer. It seemed like an idea worth considering!

I also recall thinking about attacking a guy over a piece of pizza! We'd been there for several 36 hour shifts and I hadn't eaten in over 24 hours. He was stopping by to say hi and eat the only food I'd seen.

Sleep is very good.

[aja8888]

When I was in the Air Force, I was part of a nuclear missile launch crew in hardened silos. We had several "birds" under our control and duty. I remember extra long shifts when maintenance and other interruptions were going on and sometimes crew change was extended many hours (not more than a day, but really long). We were not allowed to sleep on duty.

I really wonder (now) if the command at that time realized the potential of a major "event" happening on our part? But it would have been difficult as we had to decode a message to arm a warhead. But we could have done some other crazy stuff.

[Bir48die]

I have had chronic insomnia for over 15 years. At one point I drank a bit much just to sleep but it was bad sleep. I went through all sorts of studies and many appointments. Eventually went on Ambien. Have cut down dosage and don't worry as much if I don't fall immediately to sleep. Doctor tells me I'm at risk of Alzheimer's if I take Ambien. Now I'm at risk if I don't. I'll take the first risk and sleep.

[John Galt III]

This discussion reminds me of my 18 wheeler truck driving days. I was amazed at how little sleep some of those guys got. And it was unpredictable times during which they could sleep. I had a predictable schedule, thank God, but even so, you get tired. At 4 AM after at the end of a 14 hour shift, with 11 hours of driving time, your hearing gets highly sensitive. You hear songs on the radio in a brand new way.

[TromboneAl]

Here's a hypothetical situation to consider.

Two men, age 65, have been sleeping less each night. They can only seem to get about five hours of sleep, although when younger, both slept 8-9 hours per night.

Man A lives with it.

Man B sees his doctor, and gets medication to help him sleep. It may include OTC meds such as doxylamine and/or melatonin, and it may include prescription meds. Every night he takes medication to help him sleep, and he gets 8-9 hours or sleep.

Note that there might be longterm side effects of the sleep medication, and the sleep produced may not be a restorative as natural sleep.

After ten years, which man is better off, health-wise?

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the restorative effects of even the drug-assisted sleep would outweigh the possible damaging effects of the drugs.

[Amethyst]

The only problem I have with your scenario is that it didn't mention efforts/advice by the doctor to improve the men's sleep, before prescribing drugs. I'd like to see a slate of lifestyle changes to try to improve sleep, before the Rx pad comes out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Here's a hypothetical situation to consider. Two men, age 65, have been sleeping less each night. They can only seem to get about five hours of sleep, although when younger, both slept 8-9 hours per night. Man A lives with it. Man B sees his doctor, and gets medication to help him sleep. It may include OTC meds such as doxylamine and/or melatonin, and it may include prescription meds. Every night he takes medication to help him sleep, and he gets 8-9 hours or sleep. Note that there might be longterm side effects of the sleep medication, and the sleep produced may not be a restorative as natural sleep. After ten years, which man is better off, health-wise? My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the restorative effects of even the drug-assisted sleep would outweigh the possible damaging effects of the drugs.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Here's a hypothetical situation to consider. Two men, age 65, have been sleeping less each night. They can only seem to get about five hours of sleep, although when younger, both slept 8-9 hours per night. Man A lives with it. Man B sees his doctor, and gets medication to help him sleep. It may include OTC meds such as doxylamine and/or melatonin, and it may include prescription meds. Every night he takes medication to help him sleep, and he gets 8-9 hours or sleep. Note that there might be longterm side effects of the sleep medication, and the sleep produced may not be a restorative as natural sleep. After ten years, which man is better off, health-wise? My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the restorative effects of even the drug-assisted sleep would outweigh the possible damaging effects of the drugs.

I was part of that experiment unfortunately(maybe) the meds quit working after many years. Wasn't much fun for the next few months.

[sengsational]

Lumping together various interventions and trying to generalize on that is probably not going to lead to any sound conclusions. What I mean is that the restorative value of the sleep could be wildly different, depending on what drug or supplement is taken. Based on what I recall from the book, the typical pharma solution doesn't provide the best, healthiest sleep because the "quick fix" mechanism employed by those drugs put you out, but also disrupts the active, restorative, sleep process.

[fh2000]

I sleep 5-6 hours each night, and have been like this for a long time. I do not feel sleepy during the day. I may doze off for up to an hour after dinner watching TV with my DW.

Is it possible some people simply require less sleep and still be healthy?

[Dreamer]

I had to give a lesson titled, Sleep from A to ZZZ, at our club meeting on Wednesday. I had read the lesson over a couple of times and watched the above video and a couple of other videos regarding sleep on Tuesday. Did I mention that I am a procrastinator? Tuesday night, I could not get to sleep. I got out of bed a couple of times to read a book and finally moved to the spare bedroom, so I did not wake up my DH. I think my mind was dwelling on the things that people do that make them have a hard time sleeping. I slept very well last night.

[tmm99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational Lumping together various interventions and trying to generalize on that is probably not going to lead to any sound conclusions. What I mean is that the restorative value of the sleep could be wildly different, depending on what drug or supplement is taken. Based on what I recall from the book, the typical pharma solution doesn't provide the best, healthiest sleep because the "quick fix" mechanism employed by those drugs put you out, but also disrupts the active, restorative, sleep process.

Thank you very much, sengsational, for your posts. (I didn't know he had a book out...) I found some lectures by him on Youtube, and the lecture I watched was fascinating. He did touch the pharma solution a bit too, as well as the effect of alcohol consumption, and drinking coffee being detrimental and why. His explanations kind of blew me away. Also interesting that he used a term "brain damaged" when he talked about people who get disrupted sleep for many years, like firefighters, air traffic controllers, surgeons, etc. I have just requested his book at my local library.

[eytonxav]

I usually sleep 4.5 - 6 hours a night, as it usually is interrupted by a trip to the bathroom and/or the cat meowing. However, I also nap on the couch for an hour to two before bed

[sengsational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmm99 I have just requested his book at my local library.

I borrowed the book from my local library too. It was in demand, so couldn't renew and brought it back. That's why I'm kind of fuzzy on the details...couldn't look them up.

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Originally Posted by fh2000 Is it possible some people simply require less sleep and still be healthy?

Well, according to what I ended-up taking away from Walker's book, I'd say he certainly doesn't think so. I think the general idea is that as we get older, we have a harder time getting restorative sleep, which increases the aging process. Which in turn makes it even harder to get good sleep.

I was going to hold this back because not only is it a whack-job supplement, it's not even supposed to be for improving sleep. But here goes... I tried a wild green oat extract and found that I was more able to go back to sleep after waking "early". By "early", I mean after 6 or so hours. Normally, I'd wake up after 6 hours and no matter what I did, there was zero possibility of falling back asleep. After taking this supplement, I found that I could sometimes get a couple more hours of solid sleep. Then I ran out of the stuff, and I STILL could go back to sleep after waking early! So maybe it was placebo effect. This stuff has the goofy name "Dopa-Mind" and it's supposed to improve cognitive ability by inhibiting the monoamine oxidase B enzyme, which can promote higher levels of dopamine. Apparently there have been clinical studies on that topic, but I didn't get into those too much. It's something you take during the day and doesn't make you drowsy or anything...it doesn't work that way. It's a whole different mechanism, and, like I say, not supposed to be for improved sleep anyway. So a huge "your mileage may vary" stipulation, but I thought I'd throw it out there. If someone experiences the improved sleep I got (apparently) from it, it's worth it. It's not hugely expensive and you can get it on Amazon or directly from LEF.

[CaptTom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational I was going to hold this back because not only is it a whack-job supplement, it's not even supposed to be for improving sleep. But here goes... I tried a wild green oat extract and found that I was more able to go back to sleep after waking "early". By "early", I mean after 6 or so hours. Normally, I'd wake up after 6 hours and no matter what I did, there was zero possibility of falling back asleep. After taking this supplement, I found that I could sometimes get a couple more hours of solid sleep.

I'm the first one on here to try to debunk BS, but I'm not going there. For all I know, this supplement could do something to your gut biome which changes some metabolic process. Sleep is SO intertwined with both body and mind that anything's possible.

That said, I think attitude is a huge component. It's easier to get to sleep, and easier to go back to sleep, now that I don't have to wake up early for w*rk and risk a miserably day if I don't get enough sleep.

It's still hard to sleep a lot later than I did when I was w*rking. I can feel my body ramping up. My metabolism increases and I feel hot under the covers. My gut decides it's time to get ready for breakfast and discharge last night's dinner. My mind starts racing about things I need to do today.

It's all connected.