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View Poll Results: Tell us about your LDL measurements and statin use
Thought there was only one LDL measurement, using statin. 24 20.87%
Thought there was only one LDL measurement, not using statin. 25 21.74%
Heard about LDL particle size, never had an LDL-P test, using statin. 14 12.17%
Heard about LDL particle size, never had an LDL-P test, not using statin. 30 26.09%
Had an LDL-P test, using statin. 9 7.83%
Had an LDL-P test, not using statin. 13 11.30%
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Old 01-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #121
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Avocado is supposed to be very good for improving blood lipid results.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:37 AM   #122
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Avocado is supposed to be very good for improving blood lipid results.
I eat a lot of 'em. Not claiming causality here, but when I went to the biometric screening and they did a 'while you wait' blood lipid test, I "broke the machine" because my HDL was over 100!
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:37 AM   #123
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I would be concerned that your HDL continues to go down. The rest of it, not so much.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:04 AM   #124
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I would be concerned that your HDL continues to go down. The rest of it, not so much.
Reducing foods with added sugar and foods with highly processed, pulverized flours, brought my Trigs way down and increased my HDL. I have read that the HDL/Trig ratio is a much better predictor of CVD than simple cholesterol levels, so that made me quite happy.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:16 AM   #125
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I "broke the machine" because my HDL was over 100!
I have this too with an HDL of 117 last count.
There is actually a name for this >90 HDL 'condition' - hyperalphalipoproteinemia. Mostly genetic, it occurs in about 7% of my cohort, white males. It is more common with woman, blacks, and some asians.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:03 AM   #126
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One thing I object to is the idea the LDL is 'bad' and HDL is 'good'. From what I understand, minimal that it is, we need both to survive. What may be a problem is if they are out of balance. But, the idea that one is bad for us and one is good for us is not accurate.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:24 PM   #127
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Effort to increase HDLs have not been successful in reducing CHD or mortality rates.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:00 PM   #128
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razztazz, I'm not sure exactly what point you were making, but there is a very well established correlation showing that subjects with lower HDL are more likely to develop heart disease than those with higher HDL. And increasing your HDL is very easy with a low carb, high fat diet.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:52 PM   #129
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razztazz, I'm not sure exactly what point you were making, but there is a very well established correlation showing that subjects with lower HDL are more likely to develop heart disease than those with higher HDL.
I believe that is true. That does not, however, prove that raising HDL will lower risk. That is, it could be that something other than the HDL is causing the correlation to which you refer such that simply raising HDL wouldn't do anything.

And there is actually some research addressing this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/he...risk.html?_r=0

All of that said, I don't think the book is closed on this issue and more research needs to be done.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:25 PM   #130
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Agreed.
HDL certainly has anti-inflammatory properties, and this is most likely a big contributor, but the actual mechanisms are still unknown, I think.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:13 PM   #131
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And then, predictably, there is this:

Study: “Good” Cholesterol Can Be Bad for Your Heart | Yahoo Health

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HDL—the so-called “good” cholesterol—sometimes goes rogue and clogs arteries instead of keeping them healthy, according to a groundbreaking new study published in Nature Medicine.

Cleveland Clinic researchers have solved a longstanding scientific mystery: despite numerous studies showing that HDL has heart-protective properties, all studies conducted to date on therapies designed to boost good cholesterol have failed to show any significant improvement in cardiovascular health.
As long as they keep hiding behind "latest studies show" and moving the goal posts with no actual stable data to show anything, we kinda know what the medical industry is up to. And all existing "very well established correlation" regarding cholesterol and heart disease is unfounded regardless of what they say and has been countered all along the way by other data that is just as good. (but perhaps not as lucrative).

As we used to day in the aviation biz: Good data is good. No data is bad. Bad data will get you killed
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:31 PM   #132
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And all existing "very well established correlation" regarding cholesterol and heart disease is unfounded regardless of what they say and has been countered all along the way by other data that is just as good.
The HDL correlation I mentioned above is very well founded, from numerous large studies. I would be interested in seeing what you consider countervailing data.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:55 PM   #133
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The risks of heart disease varies by what drug Big Pharma can get approval for.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:49 PM   #134
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The HDL correlation I mentioned above is very well founded, from numerous large studies. I would be interested in seeing what you consider countervailing data.
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The HDL correlation I mentioned above is very well founded, from numerous large studies.
Which is proof of large studies. Correlation? they'll need to do better than that. Heart disease correlates 100% with people who go to the bathroom every day. The studies you cite are in fact not conclusive as results vary by study. Cite all the other studies then reconcile them then you can have a reason to believe.

I however see no reason to engage in the internet laundry list game. I already know what "Studies show" hence no cross of cholesterol to crucify anyone on. I am making no extraordinary claims nor saying anything unusual.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:08 PM   #135
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The risks of heart disease varies by what drug Big Pharma can get approval for.
True story: Late 1990s. My doctors was hype-selling statins and my need to avoid an imminent heart attack at age 41 with cholesterol of 215. At the time I figured hey, play it safe. So.... as a vegetarian on statins my LDLs came down but my triglycerides were 400-600 and HDLs had dropped to high teens/low 20s. Doctor says don't pay any attention to them they don't matter. ONLY LDLs matter. I joked and said, yes until they come out with a pill that raises HLDs or lowers triglicerides

A little white later they start advertising this pill on TV, I forget the name and I'm not sure it's even still being sold. The commercial started with

"WHEN LOWERING YOUR CHOLESTEROL IS NOT ENOUGH! This drug increases "good cholesterol" and lowers triglycerides an important indicator of heart disease!

Next visit shyster doctor says we need to get you on this new drug. Your triglycerides are too high and your good cholesterol is too low.

Every doctor I've had since then says the same thing. I have been off statins since 2002 unilaterally due to a host of medical problems all caused by statins. Doctor insisted they couldn't be caused by statins. No consderation or the patient's health or well-being. None of these doctors even hears me or wants to. Not interested in treating anything but cholesterol because apparently there's nothing else wrong with me. At least nothing they can pimp to me.

I ask them, so just what does this or that study actually say? And they can never tell me. I ask, OK so when you say risk what do you mean? Give m a number. what's the risk difference between this number and that number? No can do. Robot-clone-tourettes-afflicted parrots. Can only repeat what the Man on TV or their Boss tells them to think. Data? Knowledge? Interest in the patient? They have none. This is 100% personal ongoing experience not misstated, misinterpreted paper "studies".

I still haven't had that heart attack and since I stopped statins I feel much better.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:58 AM   #136
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Doctor says don't pay any attention to them they don't matter. ONLY LDLs matter.
Very true. This is the saddest part, really. For many years, doctors were told to just focus, tunnel-vision style, on the LDL number. I'm convinced this was because statins were incredibly profitable and their only real effect was to lower LDL. So many pharma reps pushed partial information to the docs, who were too busy to look into the matter deeply.

Many, if not most doctors are now much better informed, but there is still plenty of misinformation circulating in both the medical community and the public. We each have to do our own investigating and do what seems best.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:32 AM   #137
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Studies that show correlation are interesting and very helpful to point researches in a certain direction for further studies, BUT are much less compelling for behavior changes than harder science that show cause and effect.

A good example of this was peptic ulcers. For YEARS doctors didn't really know what was causing most ulcers. Eat better! Reduce your stress! None of it really worked long term.

Then folks figured out the actual cause: Helicobacter pylori infection.

When they cured that infection, the vast majority of cases were cured.


We need more of this type of research in medicine and less correlation studies. The later simply show how little we understand about how the body really works at this point.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:04 AM   #138
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I still haven't had that heart attack and since I stopped statins I feel much better.
Statins can be really bad. They put my FIL in a wheel chair (for a bit). After he started on statins, but before it got bad, I was pulling weeds in the garden with him and he started complaining that after squatting around, his legs really hurt. I told him right then "you need to get off those statins", but he said "what about my numbers" . He finally went to the guy who prescribed the drug and only got off the statins when the doc told him to. That same doc mailed me a prescription for Zocor when my LDL was 115 and my TC to HDL ratio was 2.9! (my research at the time indicated that <4.5 is desirable, 3.3 optimal). That was the last time I went to that guy.

Check your local hospitals in February (heart health month, or something like that). Mine is going to have a 'sale' on getting a calcium score ($99). It's a CT of your carotid, so involves radiation, but you'll see real disease progression (or not!). Or if you don't like radiation, you can get a CIMT, which shows build-up before it calcifies, so actually earlier detection.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:30 AM   #139
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A good example of this was peptic ulcers. For YEARS doctors didn't really know what was causing most ulcers. Eat better! Reduce your stress! None of it really worked long term.

Then folks figured out the actual cause: Helicobacter pylori infection.

When they cured that infection, the vast majority of cases were cured.
IIRC, the people who held the view that ulcers were caused by an infection were pretty well criticized, before they were proven correct.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:37 AM   #140
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as a vegetarian on statins my LDLs came down but my triglycerides were 400-600 and HDLs had dropped to high teens/low 20s.
Interesting, since the latest thinking is that the ratio of Trigs/HDL is a better predictor of CVD than cholesterol. It should be under about 2.

Better Know Your Triglyceride/HDL Ratio if You Want to Prevent a Heart Attack

High Ratio of Triglycerides to HDL-Cholesterol Predicts Extensive Coronary Disease
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