Look How Quickly the US Got Fat? (1985-2010)

[haha]

I think I see what you are each saying. Thinker is saying that she feels that perhaps she might learn from what is being said in this book. That it does not seem completely off the wall, that the author has some good credentials, and that if someone is struggling with weight, it might offer a valuable thing to try.

Erd50 is saying that he does not see the scientific evidence sufficient to support the assertion that the book seems pretty convincing.

Yet saying that something seems convincing, or pretty convincing, is not as assertion that it is correct. It's just a self reflexive statement of approval, and may reflect that the speaker feels some interest in it, does not reject it out of hand, and may be willing to look deeper.

Personally, if I had required scientific proof for everything that I have ever accepted or acted on I would likely never have done anything or accepted much.

If I had a weight problem, I would not be demanding scientific proof that something is effective, only good evidence that it is not dangerous, and that it's cost is not huge. We lean people often cannot realize how hard some who are not lean can struggle with trying to lose weight. Particularly a woman. Look at all the negative social messages they receive on account of nothing more than their weight.

Ha

[Aruba50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut The fact is that his diet has been shown to reverse heart disease in some people. I would call that success. After hearing an interview with him I concluded that Ornish would be the last person to recommend the low-fat, high sugar, junk food that we have been sold. His diet is rich in real food minimally processed, yes that includes carbs. Whether most people can maintain an Ornish diet is another question. I doubt if most of us could. But, the diet does work. Natural foods tend to be hi-fat or hi-carb. I can't think of natural food that is both high in fat and high in carbs. This is not religion. N=1. If low-fat works for some people great! If low-carbs work for others, great! If one can eat triple bacon burgers, ice cream sundaes, potato chips and chocolate coated sugar bombs and still be healthy, great!

Dean Ornish shows anecdotal results of small groups of his own patients. His approach is very stringent and includes a great many more changes than their diet. Principal among them is the complete cessation of smoking and inclusion of yoga and other exercise regimens. Despite all this, he insists on concluding that his ultra low fat diet is the answer. He may or may not be right but no one else has demonstrated this and his own studies are far too narrow and uncontrolled to be anything like conclusive. Other more rigorously controlled studies on low fat regimens have not shown any real longevity enhancements.

[M Paquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha There are probably internet support groups supporting cannibalism. However weird someone is, the internet can show them how to become even weirder. Ha

Yup. Rule 34 weird at least, and of course Rule 28.

http://xkcd.com/305/

[Amethyst]

Ha, are you saying it's harder for a woman than a man to maintain a healthy weight, or that society disapproves more of fat women's appearance? The second argument probably deserves a separate thread, IMHO.

I believe social concern about the rise in overweight - as reflected in this thread - is connected to the presumed health issues connected to overweight, and its presumed cost to society for treating those health issues. Women and men both would seem to have a stake in this concern.

Amethyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha people often cannot realize how hard some who are not lean can struggle with trying to lose weight. Particularly a woman. Look at all the negative social messages they receive on account of nothing more than their weight. Ha

[Amethyst]

True, if irrelevant. The Internet was not generally available in 1985, when the "fatter" trend seems to have started. Also, I would hardly equate people who (like my good and decent relative) use the Web as a social network to help them feel good about being fat, with cannibals.

Amethyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha There are probably internet support groups supporting cannibalism. However weird someone is, the internet can show them how to become even weirder. Ha

[Chuckanut]

Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat.

Ha is right about thinner people not understanding what the overweight are dealing with, IMHO.

[Amethyst]

I am a more-than-normally empathetic person, and I hear this "you don't understand what fat people are dealing with" all the time (especially from my relative). Empathy, in the larger sense, usually does help society get along better. None of us can really know what the guy next to us is dealing with, or how hard it is for him to get along, do the right thing, etc. Therefore, we cut each other breaks.

However, I don't see how "understanding" what fat people are dealing with helps fat people solve their problems, or solves the general issue of society paying for the increase in overweight (that is, if it really is costing society more; I have heard arguments on both sides, and don't want to come down on either side, or cause that argument to blow up on this thread either ).

I don't think my posts are going anywhere, so I will just leave the thread alone. I perceive that my love of my morbidly obese, stubbornly self-destructive relative is coloring my feelings toward the weight issue generally.

Amethyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat. Ha is right about thinner people not understanding what the overweight are dealing with, IMHO.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amethyst True, if irrelevant.

If irrelevance were a disqualification from posting, this entire board would disappear.

Ha

[sengsational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha If irrelevance were a disqualification from posting, this entire board would disappear.

Petty bickering - YouTube

Not really a critique of those in this interesting discussion here, but just came to mind from Mr. Ha's comment. Please, don't take this too seriously!!

[someguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat.

Being 14 lbs overweight might still affect me and everyone else if it increases your healthcare costs and you are not paying for all those increases out of pocket.