Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-19-2013, 06:48 PM   #141
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
I think I see what you are each saying. Thinker is saying that she feels that perhaps she might learn from what is being said in this book. That it does not seem completely off the wall, that the author has some good credentials, and that if someone is struggling with weight, it might offer a valuable thing to try.

Erd50 is saying that he does not see the scientific evidence sufficient to support the assertion that the book seems pretty convincing.

Yet saying that something seems convincing, or pretty convincing, is not as assertion that it is correct. It's just a self reflexive statement of approval, and may reflect that the speaker feels some interest in it, does not reject it out of hand, and may be willing to look deeper.

Personally, if I had required scientific proof for everything that I have ever accepted or acted on I would likely never have done anything or accepted much.

If I had a weight problem, I would not be demanding scientific proof that something is effective, only good evidence that it is not dangerous, and that it's cost is not huge. We lean people often cannot realize how hard some who are not lean can struggle with trying to lose weight. Particularly a woman. Look at all the negative social messages they receive on account of nothing more than their weight.

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-19-2013, 07:59 PM   #142
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post

The fact is that his diet has been shown to reverse heart disease in some people. I would call that success.

After hearing an interview with him I concluded that Ornish would be the last person to recommend the low-fat, high sugar, junk food that we have been sold. His diet is rich in real food minimally processed, yes that includes carbs.

Whether most people can maintain an Ornish diet is another question. I doubt if most of us could. But, the diet does work.

Natural foods tend to be hi-fat or hi-carb. I can't think of natural food that is both high in fat and high in carbs.

This is not religion. N=1. If low-fat works for some people great! If low-carbs work for others, great! If one can eat triple bacon burgers, ice cream sundaes, potato chips and chocolate coated sugar bombs and still be healthy, great!
Dean Ornish shows anecdotal results of small groups of his own patients. His approach is very stringent and includes a great many more changes than their diet. Principal among them is the complete cessation of smoking and inclusion of yoga and other exercise regimens. Despite all this, he insists on concluding that his ultra low fat diet is the answer. He may or may not be right but no one else has demonstrated this and his own studies are far too narrow and uncontrolled to be anything like conclusive. Other more rigorously controlled studies on low fat regimens have not shown any real longevity enhancements.
__________________

__________________
Aruba50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 08:37 PM   #143
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
There are probably internet support groups supporting cannibalism. However weird someone is, the internet can show them how to become even weirder.

Ha
Yup. Rule 34 weird at least, and of course Rule 28.

http://xkcd.com/305/
__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:21 PM   #144
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,887
Ha, are you saying it's harder for a woman than a man to maintain a healthy weight, or that society disapproves more of fat women's appearance? The second argument probably deserves a separate thread, IMHO.

I believe social concern about the rise in overweight - as reflected in this thread - is connected to the presumed health issues connected to overweight, and its presumed cost to society for treating those health issues. Women and men both would seem to have a stake in this concern.

Amethyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
people often cannot realize how hard some who are not lean can struggle with trying to lose weight. Particularly a woman. Look at all the negative social messages they receive on account of nothing more than their weight.

Ha
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 05:30 AM   #145
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,887
True, if irrelevant. The Internet was not generally available in 1985, when the "fatter" trend seems to have started. Also, I would hardly equate people who (like my good and decent relative) use the Web as a social network to help them feel good about being fat, with cannibals.

Amethyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
There are probably internet support groups supporting cannibalism. However weird someone is, the internet can show them how to become even weirder.

Ha
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:36 PM   #146
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,330
Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat.

Ha is right about thinner people not understanding what the overweight are dealing with, IMHO.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:35 PM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,887
I am a more-than-normally empathetic person, and I hear this "you don't understand what fat people are dealing with" all the time (especially from my relative). Empathy, in the larger sense, usually does help society get along better. None of us can really know what the guy next to us is dealing with, or how hard it is for him to get along, do the right thing, etc. Therefore, we cut each other breaks.

However, I don't see how "understanding" what fat people are dealing with helps fat people solve their problems, or solves the general issue of society paying for the increase in overweight (that is, if it really is costing society more; I have heard arguments on both sides, and don't want to come down on either side, or cause that argument to blow up on this thread either ).

I don't think my posts are going anywhere, so I will just leave the thread alone. I perceive that my love of my morbidly obese, stubbornly self-destructive relative is coloring my feelings toward the weight issue generally.

Amethyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat.

Ha is right about thinner people not understanding what the overweight are dealing with, IMHO.
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #148
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
True, if irrelevant.
If irrelevance were a disqualification from posting, this entire board would disappear.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 09:55 AM   #149
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
sengsational's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,837
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
If irrelevance were a disqualification from posting, this entire board would disappear.


Not really a critique of those in this interesting discussion here, but just came to mind from Mr. Ha's comment. Please, don't take this too seriously!!
__________________
sengsational is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 10:47 AM   #150
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Weight used to be a personal issue. But the extreme overweight we are seeing has made it a societal issue. Example; if I am 14 pounds overweight that usually does not affect others around me, but if I am 50+ pounds overweight and sitting next to you on PuddleJumper airline, you might object to me taking up 20% of your already small seat.
Being 14 lbs overweight might still affect me and everyone else if it increases your healthcare costs and you are not paying for all those increases out of pocket.
__________________

__________________
someguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:13 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.