Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Most of what your doctor does, a robot can do better
Old 04-02-2014, 03:16 PM   #1
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,487
Most of what your doctor does, a robot can do better

Here's an interesting article, written by a medical student at University of Pennsylvania, about the potential for robots in medicine. Most of what your doctor does, a robot can do better – Quartz One snippet
Quote:
My medical education focuses on recognizing pathologies under tight deadlines: efficiency and specialized pattern recognition. I'm hard pressed to make a case for my edge over a robot in these domains. And if I have no edge, I would be doing my patients a disservice to guard my job.
This is not a case of technology replacing physicians (IMHO). More like using technology to make highly trained individuals more productive and help reach more users in a cost effective manner. Much of this will never reach me, but my children and their families should benefit enormously, as might countless others living in under-served areas.
__________________

__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-02-2014, 03:24 PM   #2
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,571
Interesting. I'm halfway through Daniel Kaneman's Thinking Fast and Slow. He touches on the subject that formulas can do better in many cases than humans can.
__________________

__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2014, 04:12 PM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Not a new story. AI has advanced to a point that SW (I.e, computer, robot, etc) can diagnose better than average doctor can.

... and that's Dr. Robot to (for) you .
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2014, 05:28 PM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Maybe we will have our own emergency medical holograms some day. It is only a matter of time before symptoms are typed into a database and a list of possible diagnoses, probabilities and potential treatments are displayed back. It has been long overdue.
__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2014, 05:30 PM   #5
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
This is not a case of technology replacing physicians (IMHO). More like using technology to make highly trained individuals more productive and help reach more users in a cost effective manner. Much of this will never reach me, but my children and their families should benefit enormously, as might countless others living in under-served areas.
Just like everywhere else in the economy where automation and mechanization were supposed to simple make jobs easier for workers or free them up for other more complex tasks. Instead it's produced millions upon millions of pink slips as jobs are slashed and replaced *entirely* by robots and computers and the like.

It's just another example of how our society has to come to terms with economic and technological progress that makes labor more and more irrelevant with the passing of each year.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2014, 06:02 PM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,019
Robotic surgery has been around for a while and computerized decision support systems for a long while. Uptake has been spotty. A lot of humans are required to service the robots and DSS. There remain many tasks and skills that physicians do that are unlikely to be replaced by technology, though some of those can be done by other humans, e.g. Nurse Practitioners (who are not necessarily cheaper). As always, implementation lags behind the science, and given that it is complex and political, I wouldn't discount the medical profession just yet.
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 12:02 PM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
Interesting. I'm halfway through Daniel Kaneman's Thinking Fast and Slow. He touches on the subject that formulas can do better in many cases than humans can.
Great book, one of the researchers that the 'Freakonomic' team often references. I happened to be reading it at the time that I had a Doctors appointment, and I recc it to my Doc. Some very relevant sections for the medical field.

I did end up skimming some of it, IIRC, there were a lot of multiple examples of the same points, and after a while I felt like "OK, I got it, don't need another example". But some real thought provoking stuff. It's interesting to be a bit more aware of the times where you 'think fast' and maybe it really needs a 'think slow' approach.

I'll need to follow the original link in the thread, but I imagine that we don't need to wait another generation for this. I would think that much of what can be automated can be done today. I also expect that there will be some push-back from MDs who don't want to off-load their decision making to an algorithm or computer. I saw it among some engineers, and I would imagine some MDs would generally be even more resistant. That may be what slows down progress in this area.

IIRC, the APGAR score is an example of this, and was mentioned in some other thread, by Meadbh I think.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 12:08 PM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Just like everywhere else in the economy where automation and mechanization were supposed to simple make jobs easier for workers or free them up for other more complex tasks. Instead it's produced millions upon millions of pink slips as jobs are slashed and replaced *entirely* by robots and computers and the like.

It's just another example of how our society has to come to terms with economic and technological progress that makes labor more and more irrelevant with the passing of each year.
?

In 1900, ~ 38% of the population were farm workers, that is now ~ 4%. Do we have +34% unemployment due to that? Should we go back to manual farming? Who would be served by higher food prices?

The times they are a-changin'.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 12:19 PM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
Sorry, I just don't believe this. Could a robot send me a $500 invoice for a thirty minute visit? I don't think so!
__________________
Fermion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 01:21 PM   #10
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
In 1900, ~ 38% of the population were farm workers, that is now ~ 4%. Do we have +34% unemployment due to that? Should we go back to manual farming? Who would be served by higher food prices?
Creative destruction no longer works the way it used to. It used to mean that jobs that were eliminated in some industries (by being obsolete) were replaced by even BETTER jobs in a new industry.

That's not been working well for the last decade or two. These days the jobs that are displaced are either eliminated entirely or offshored to some cheap labor haven overseas.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 01:56 PM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermion View Post
Sorry, I just don't believe this. Could a robot send me a $500 invoice for a thirty minute visit? I don't think so!

It may send you a $1000 invoice. Robots can be costly (better service - quality/no waiting, material, maintenance, insurance against law suits, union dues, .... ) .
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 02:38 PM   #12
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,337
Who programs the robot? I can see it now: all males over the age of 63 will have to take a statin. Oh, wait... We already have that with the new guidelines.

I see robot doctors the way I see robotics in cars and aircraft - an important safety feature to help overcome human error, but no substitute for human reasoning.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 02:54 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Creative destruction no longer works the way it used to. It used to mean that jobs that were eliminated in some industries (by being obsolete) were replaced by even BETTER jobs in a new industry.

That's not been working well for the last decade or two. These days the jobs that are displaced are either eliminated entirely or offshored to some cheap labor haven overseas.
I'd say that is largely a function of our 'flat earth', not a reflection on technology replacing jobs.

And for the person in a 3rd world country, that new job is replacing their old job with an 'even BETTER jobs in a new industry'. Bottom line, it's tougher for low-end workers in the US to compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
...

I see robot doctors the way I see robotics in cars and aircraft - an important safety feature to help overcome human error, but no substitute for human reasoning.
In many cases, replacing human reasoning is the thing to do. I'd certainly trust a well programmed algorithm to detect potential drug interactions over counting on my Dr to remember that info, and hope he/she's on their game that day.

The key is - use computers where they add value, use humans where they add value.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 03:00 PM   #14
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Bottom line, it's tougher for low-end workers in the US to compete.
If by "lower end" you mean "the lower 80%", I would agree. And if 80% of the people have standards of living that keep creeping closer and closer to the Third World over time, well, I hate to think that's our only option.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 04:06 PM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
If by "lower end" you mean "the lower 80%", I would agree. And if 80% of the people have standards of living that keep creeping closer and closer to the Third World over time, well, I hate to think that's our only option.
I guess you might better term in convergence over time. as the standards of living in the 3rd world are rising, for example famine is far less common. Also having skipped wireline phones wireless cell phones and smart phones are common. The question is is the third world rising faster than the 1st world is sinking? (In particular measure against the middle class in the 3rd world not the bottom strata.)
__________________
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 05:56 PM   #16
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
grasshopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,671
Here is one, I bought a sound enhancer, for bird watching/listening. It has Bluetooth tech, an android app that I can run the whole sound spectrum and adjust it basicly like being at the Audiologist on my tablet. Anyway flat world coming, the folks made it primarily for 3rd world countries where everyone has a smartphone, but not an Audiologist. Don't tell but I use it also as a hearing aid.
__________________
For me experiences are not good or bad, just different
grasshopper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 07:52 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
If by "lower end" you mean "the lower 80%", I would agree. And if 80% of the people have standards of living that keep creeping closer and closer to the Third World over time, well, I hate to think that's our only option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meierlde View Post
I guess you might better term in convergence over time. as the standards of living in the 3rd world are rising, for example famine is far less common. Also having skipped wireline phones wireless cell phones and smart phones are common. The question is is the third world rising faster than the 1st world is sinking? (In particular measure against the middle class in the 3rd world not the bottom strata.)
This is getting pretty far off-topic from the thread, but I'll say that I agree with meierlde. The third world is creeping closer and closer to us. They don't have clean drinking water or access or basic health care, while most of our our 'poor' have that plus color TV, cable, a game console, AC and heat as needed.

And it isn't our only option because it is not a zero sum game, we just need to come up with technology solutions. I think there are many promising ones, but predicting the future is hard. Maybe for another thread?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2014, 12:46 PM   #18
Full time employment: Posting here.
BTravlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post
Maybe we will have our own emergency medical holograms some day. It is only a matter of time before symptoms are typed into a database and a list of possible diagnoses, probabilities and potential treatments are displayed back. It has been long overdue.
It's already here, albeit in crude form.

Symptom Checker from WebMD. Check Your Medical Symptoms.

I used this to diagnose DW's gall stone eruption and took her to the emergency room. The Web MD diagnosis was correct and her gall bladder was removed the next day.
__________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
(In other words, no whining!)
BTravlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2014, 02:00 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTravlin View Post
It's already here, albeit in crude form.

Symptom Checker from WebMD. Check Your Medical Symptoms.

I used this to diagnose DW's gall stone eruption and took her to the emergency room. The Web MD diagnosis was correct and her gall bladder was removed the next day.
My MD uses something similar, don't think he likes to. The fine conglomerate that owns the practice does it for risk management. He's not afraid to go old school, when 30 years of practice says different.
MRG
__________________
MRG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2014, 02:27 PM   #20
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,792
I want my very own Tricorder.
__________________

__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Robot Portfolio redux Ed_The_Gypsy FIRE and Money 27 05-01-2009 03:29 PM
John Dorfman’s Robot Portfolio--again Ed_The_Gypsy FIRE and Money 3 03-05-2007 01:55 AM
I can retire---and my doctor can't?!? tangomonster Hi, I am... 53 07-27-2006 11:07 AM
the Robot Portfolio Ed_The_Gypsy FIRE and Money 10 02-15-2006 12:16 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:09 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.