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Old 07-27-2007, 09:59 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
Cute -

Since you are unaware of a SINGLE example, here are a few more for you to ponder:

Health Care America : Choice

Health Care America : Choice

Health Care America : Choice
I try not to get scared by a few anecdotes. I am sure that anywhere I will be able to find horror stories; including in the United States.
IMHO what really matters is what proportion of people are well served by the system. And of course I am particularly thinking of myself too and try to put myself in some of possible isutatyions in the future. Not only the one that I am now.

The site claims it is non -partisan however... Take a look at who runs it:
Health Care America : Choice

Another thing: The United Kingdom in the 18th spot, Canada at No. 30 and Cuba in the 39th spot. We would probably want to copy the number one, two or three spots instead.
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:59 PM   #142
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IMHO what really matters is what proportion of people are well served by the system.
That is EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make all along! It's all about the proportion of people who are well served by the system. But, more than that, it's about the proportion of people who get the best possible services they need in a timely manner when they are really, really SICK! In most populations, the large majority of people are fairly heathy, so people who don't spend a lot of time in their healthcare sytem tend to favor it, regardless of what kind of system it is, because they don't have first hand experience with any of the negatives.

It's not the primary care, routine care or even emergency care that is really a major problem in any system, although an under-funded Medicare/Medicaid system is taking it's toll on primary care in America (and that's affecting a lot of people, because that's the only kind of care that most people require)

The horror stories come from the smaller percentages of the population who need life-saving medicine they can't get access to or who need diagnostic tests that aren't available when needed or who need surgery and can't get it in a timely manner from a high quality, well-trained surgeon. The question is, which kind of system serves the largest proportions of these populations in the timeliest manner with the best quality of care?

One more thing...a lot of people on this board like to site the USA's WHO ranking of 37. One thing people should know is that WHO places much of it's weight on longevity and infant mortality rates when coming up with it's rankings....and there is a lot of evidence, particularly with infant mortality rates, that these figures are not compared on an apples to apples basis among the various countries. The various countries use different criteria when counting these statistics. For example, some countries don't count babies that are not viable at birth while the USA does, so our infant mortality rates are heavily skewed when compared with other countries, and those figures weigh heavily on our WHO ranking.
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:53 PM   #143
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There are exceptions. There are whiners. Go drop by the local emergency room and check out the 30 people with the sniffles all complaining about the long wait.

So what?
Hey CFB

I think you have summed it up nicely. However, that troll MKLD will ignore your logical arguments as usual and continue with the party line. I wonder how much MKLD is being paid by the post, or is it just job preservation as an HMO broker?
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:33 AM   #144
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Hey CFB

I think you have summed it up nicely. However, that troll MKLD will ignore your logical arguments as usual and continue with the party line. I wonder how much MKLD is being paid by the post, or is it just job preservation as an HMO broker?
I always wondered what it meant to be "paid by the post". I didn't know people do get paid for posting, but, now that you mention it, I could see how that could happen. No, I don't get paid by the post. Also, I'm not an HMO broker...I'm a health insurance broker and sell both PPOs and HMOs and employer sponsored benefit plans. I like my job, believe in it, and do it more because I like it than anything else. I have lots of other marketable skills, so if we go national, I have plenty of other jobs I can do....so no, it's not about job preservation either. I could act like I'm talking behind your backs and say nasty things about your lack of common sense and logics as well and tease you over and over again over stupid mistakes, but I have avoided such tactics.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:58 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
I always wondered what it meant to be "paid by the post". I didn't know people do get paid for posting, but, now that you mention it, I could see how that could happen. No, I don't get paid by the post. Also, I'm not an HMO broker...I'm a health insurance broker and sell both PPOs and HMOs and employer sponsored benefit plans. I like my job, believe in it, and do it more because I like it than anything else. I have lots of other marketable skills, so if we go national, I have plenty of other jobs I can do....so no, it's not about job preservation either. I could act like I'm talking behind your backs and say nasty things about your lack of common sense and logics as well and tease you over and over again over stupid mistakes, but I have avoided such tactics.
MKLD -

I think people get a little suspicious when poster's 700 some odd responses on the ER forum all deal with health insurance issues and do so in a strange style. Just a thought...
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:59 AM   #146
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Isn't there a way the moderators can ban this troll?
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:19 AM   #147
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MKLD -

I think people get a little suspicious when poster's 700 some odd responses on the ER forum all deal with health insurance issues and do so in a strange style. Just a thought...
It's really the only subject that's of interest to me on this forum. It drives me nuts that a group of people who desire to retire early, at someone else's expense, want to ruin a decent system that serves the masses well by going single-payor, all in a vain attempt to be able retire 10 years early instead of working 'till age 65. In the meantime, our young people will get to pay out the ying yang so that y'all can get what you want, and then, by the time they get to be 55 years old, the system will be reduced to a socialized mess with long wait times for complicated health problems and a separate, private tier, that hardly any of them will be able to afford in retirement. At the same time, hardly any money will be left for them in the social security system either. So, in the meantime, they'll have to pay additional taxes, PLUS save for the possibility of needing private care, PLUS pay into social security, PLUS save for the social security they won't get in their old ages too.

Can the system be improved upon? YES! But why do it with a single-payor system? IMO, in the long-run, that will be nothing short of disastrous. IMO, there are better ways to make improvements to our system.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:29 AM   #148
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I think MKLD reflects the point of view of the health insurance industry. As much as I disagree with him, it is interesting to read his arguments because they reflect those who will make every effort to maintain the status quo.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:42 AM   #149
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It drives me nuts that a group of people who desire to retire early, at someone else's expense, want to ruin a decent system that serves the masses well by going single-payor, all in a vain attempt to be able retire 10 years early instead of working 'till age 65. In the meantime, our young people will get to pay out the ying yang so that y'all can get what you want
Is that you Ted? [1]

Seems we're getting to the crux of the matter.

It drives me nuts to have worked my ass off 100 hours a week for 25 years and having invested wisely enough to be able to quit working and spend all my time with my family instead of the corporate overlords, only to have it all screwed up by a bunch of insurance company bureaucrats trying to suck my wallet dry.

Kaiser has already shown me what happens when you take the insurance company and pharmacy overhead out of the equation. The price drops by half, the care improves and the paperwork I have to deal with drops to zero.

Perhaps if this community and what it stands for upsets you so much, you should take a hike to one that makes you happy.


Footnotes:
[1] For the benefit of people who havent been around forever, "Ted" was a former poster who was a very smart and astute investor. At some point, Ted (who was not retired) proclaimed his general disgust for all of the people planning to retire early because it was 'our duty' to continue working and 'contributing' to society, and anyone without a regular 8-5 job was a parasite. Clearly a community of people who have retired early or plan to do so was not a good fit for Ted.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:44 AM   #150
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> It drives me nuts that a group of people who desire to retire early, at someone else's expense

Double-U Tee Eff?
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:15 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
It's really the only subject that's of interest to me on this forum. It drives me nuts that a group of people who desire to retire early, at someone else's expense, want to ruin a decent system that serves the masses well by going single-payor, all in a vain attempt to be able retire 10 years early instead of working 'till age 65.
Wow. Now I get you. You're pissed off that people here are retired early!
But what is with the "at someone else's expense" comment? Who else is paying for the person's retirement except themselves? Through their pension or their savings? Also, you characterize ER as a "vain attempt" which also indicates you are disparaging those who live below their means or save prodigiously so that they can retire from work that is not satisfying, too stressful, or whatever. This is a person's choice. You are way over the top here.
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Old 07-28-2007, 02:59 PM   #152
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Can the system be improved upon? YES! But why do it with a single-payor system? IMO, in the long-run, that will be nothing short of disastrous. IMO, there are better ways to make improvements to our system.
Funny that our HMO broker friend spends much time disparaging the obviously better systems without even a hint as to how the current multiple payor system might be improved.

Chicken Little rides again!
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Old 07-28-2007, 03:13 PM   #153
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Wow. Now I get you. You're pissed off that people here are retired early!
But what is with the "at someone else's expense" comment? Who else is paying for the person's retirement except themselves? Through their pension or their savings? Also, you characterize ER as a "vain attempt" which also indicates you are disparaging those who live below their means or save prodigiously so that they can retire from work that is not satisfying, too stressful, or whatever. This is a person's choice. You are way over the top here.
I am an early retiree wannabe. I've been planning for it since age 25. When I retire, hopefully soon, I will have enough money to pay for my own healthcare. Knowing that I will present a higher risk and it will be much more expensive as I age, I have worked that into my plan.

I think it is very selfish to support a single-payor system for the sake of wanting to be able to retire early. That's not a good reason to ask our young people (someone else who is working hard) to pay extra taxes and burden them with the possibility that they might not have access to the best quality of care when they get old, unless they plan to save additional money for the possibility that they might have to buy private care in addition to paying into the national system. It's already going to cost our young people enough to take care of the 65+ age category, and they probably won't even get any social security benefits. Why should we ask them to now take care of the 55+? YOU didn't have to pay high taxes AND expensive private health insurance rates when YOU were 25!

Look, right now, it costs about $500/mo for a 50-60 yr old to protect their assests in the event of a huge medical claim. If you can't afford $500/mo, buy a smaller house and buy a used car. cut back on vacations. Now you can get by for the next 5-10 years, but don't ask our young people to pay for your "free" healthcare! Why is it that Americans will spend $1200-1500/mo or more on a house, and $500-$800/mo to have a nice car and budget $3000-$10000/yr to take nice vacations, but they don't want to spend a DIME on their own healthcare?

Oh by the way Kcowan, I have presented many ideas on how to improve the system in past threads. I can repeat my thoughts if you are interested, but I doubt you would be. Generally, I support disassociating health insurance from employment, and I would support catastrophic coverage for everyone including preventive care. I DO NOT support single-payor systems or Medicare for all.
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Old 07-28-2007, 03:56 PM   #154
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>but they don't want to spend a DIME on their own healthcare?

Raise your hand if you've advocated not wanting to spend money on your own health care.

I'm 29. I make a decent salary. I'd love to pay more money and ensure that everyone is covered.

My biggest concern is not being able to get coverage at any cost if I'm not under a group policy.

My second-biggest concern is that I elected to read your post.
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Old 07-28-2007, 03:59 PM   #155
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:11 PM   #156
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MKLD, ok, I have a question. I have not been here long and perhaps you have spelled it out before, but humor me:

What do you suggest that we do about the current problem of all the people that do not have and can not afford insurance?

Please do not tell me that the current system will take care of them. My plumber lost his life to cancer. He was in his mid-50's. He worked hard all his life as a plumber, had small savings and a house partially paid for, he did not qualify for government assistance as he had too much money for that but not enough money for treatment. This is not something that he could go to the emergency room and be treated for. He was many in the middle who fell through the cracks. The working uninsured I believe they are called? I want to know what the folks like him are to do currently. If you are in the business, perhaps you can give me some feedback so that if I every run into this situation again I can advise the people. Thanks
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:31 PM   #157
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MKLD, ok, I have a question. I have not been here long and perhaps you have spelled it out before, but humor me:

What do you suggest that we do about the current problem of all the people that do not have and can not afford insurance?

Please do not tell me that the current system will take care of them. My plumber lost his life to cancer. He was in his mid-50's. He worked hard all his life as a plumber, had small savings and a house partially paid for, he did not qualify for government assistance as he had too much money for that but not enough money for treatment. This is not something that he could go to the emergency room and be treated for. He was many in the middle who fell through the cracks. The working uninsured I believe they are called? I want to know what the folks like him are to do currently. If you are in the business, perhaps you can give me some feedback so that if I every run into this situation again I can advise the people. Thanks
I am generally in favor of disassociating health insurance from employment. People should be required to purchase, at minimum, a catastrophic, portable, health insurance plan from birth that is guaranteed issue and perhaps subsidized by the gov't on a sliding scale. Preventive care not subject to deductible could be included. That way, if someone gets catastrophically ill, our providers will be paid fairly above the deductible, and our economy will experience less cost shifting as a result. As for the deductible, we should be on our own. It's not that complicated to put a little bit aside on a personal basis every month from the time you are young and healthy to the time you are old and in need of care to save for some of your own out of pocket expenses. Perhaps supplemental products could be made available to allow for the purchase of supplemental insurance which would pay for deductibles or Rx on a first dollar basis if people don't want to save on their own, but if you CHOOSE not to do that while your are healthy, them's the breaks!

I am so not in favor of Medicare or Medicaid for all with free primary care services and prescription drug coverage. That would bankrupt our economy and ultimately result in care rationing of another kind.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:38 PM   #158
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My biggest concern is not being able to get coverage at any cost if I'm not under a group policy.
If you want to retire early, then I would suggest you consider purchasing private coverage instead of employer-sponsored coverage now, while you are healthy. You might have to pay a little more now (which you said you are willing to do), and it's better than not being able to retire early later. Otherwise, you run the risk of developing a pre-existing condition and not being eligible for private coverage later on. If you CHOOSE not to do that, then, plan on working 'till you are '65.
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:02 PM   #159
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I'll have to think about what you said in the above post... Who are the companies that have to offer the policies from birth? Are the rates kept in check or are they allowed to charge whatever they want if the person develops health problems? I agree that a higher deductible is a good idea. So you are for the government subsidizing this program?

As far as purchasing individual policies currently, sometimes it is just too darn expensive. I was quoted over $10,000/year 5k deductible for my individual policy and I am only 40 years old. Can you imagine what it might be years from now? BCBS has to offer me insurance here in NC but they can charge me whatever they want to which basically means that they can price folks right out of buying it. How many "average" working folks could pay that per year? Of course health insurance is NOT a guaranteed right here in the USA, but I do believe it is a sad day when this great country lets some hard working folks die just because they are not as considered as valuable as others (with money). Lesson Learned? Be REALLY poor, or wealthy or be able to get a job that has good group health insurance.
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:11 PM   #160
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Otherwise, you run the risk of developing a pre-existing condition and not being eligible for private coverage later on.
Leidens factor v

A tumor in my ribcage that is either calcified and benign or not with no easy way to find out

a wife with anemia and thalassemia

I think I'm pretty set on the pre-existing conditions, thanks.
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